A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
6 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

robin
(Robin)
The noun "stadia" is used 7 times in the NT, only once by Paul, and in all occurrences, it's taking about distances ... that is, a "stadium" is a measure of  201.5 yards distance (hence the race track called a "stadium;" and eventually what the surrounding building was called) ...

Therefore, with this in mind, where Paul ... supposedly... says in !Cor 9:24 "the ones racing IN a stadium"
is an inadvertent reading ... sensible it is, since such a racetrack might well be in some building called a stadium,
but since every other NT use of this word specifally means distance, then we should be so consistent with how
we read what Paul is saying ...

That is, he's not limiting his analogy to our racing, only when it's in some formal building ... right?
So then, what happens if we use the alternate word for "in" ... that is "among," when applied to plural matters ...
And yes, the "stadium" here is singular (N-DSN); however, Paul's not talking about plural stadiums, but talking
to and about a pluralityu of those racing ..."Have you [plural] have not perceived" ... "the ones [plural] racing" ...

So then, if we read the Greek "en" as "among" here, instead of "in" ... then where does it so fit in the phrasing?
...Not have YOU had perceived, that AMONG the ONES racing ...
 
So now that we've adjusted for the misleading "in,"this frees out thinking to understand "stadium" as the distance it really is  ...
...among the [ones] racing a stadium ...
Our English ear and idiom will still try to misread this, so let's go the extra mile and insert an editoral finish line ...
... among the [ones] racing a stadium [length] ...
 
I dont always understand the full extent of some of Paul's advice, but I think that here, he is talking more about
the ongoing struggle, and our staying the "course" (so to speak), rather than there only being a single winner ... (my opinion)
So here's how I'd read this verse:

"Not have you had perceived, that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain."  (~Robin)

***

9:24 Οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι οἱ ἐν σταδίῳ τρέχοντες πάντες μὲν τρέχουσιν, εἷς δὲ λαμβάνει τὸ βραβεῖον; Οὕτως τρέχετε, ἵνα καταλάβητε.
 ouk oidate hoti hoi en stadiO trechontes pantes men trechousin heis de lambanei to brabeion houtOs trechete hina katalabEte
 
not {3756 PRT-N} you have had perceived {3609a V-RAI-2P} that {3754 CONJ} the [ones] {3588 T-NPM} among/ in {1722 PREP} unto a stadium {4712 N-DSN} racing {5143 V-PAP-NPM} all [ones] {3956 A-NPM} indeed {3303 PRT} they race {5143 V-PAI-3P} a one [one] {1520 A-NSM} yet {1161 CONJ} he obtains {2983 V-PAI-3S} to the [thing] {3588 T-ASN} to a ruling {1017 N-ASN} thus {3779 ADV} be you racing {5143 V-PAM-2P} so-that {2443 CONJ} you should down-obtain {2638 V-2AAS-2P}


 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

Timchambers
So your recommendation for 1 Cor 9:24 is:

"Not have you had perceived, that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain."


The OEB currently reads:

Don't you know that on a racecourse, though all run, yet only one wins the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.


Which has a good natural English flow to it. Would a mix of your recommendation with this be more like:

Don't you know that for those racing to finish a racecourse, all run, yet only one wins the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

russellallen
Administrator
I guess the question is, do the extra words add anything meaningful? 

Out of interest, other people have tried:


REB At the games, as you know, all the runners take part, though only one wins the prize. 


NET Do you not know that all the runners in a stadium compete, but only one receives the prize? So run to win. 


TEV Surely you know that many runners take part in a race, but only one of them wins the prize. Run, then, in such a way as to win the prize. 


CEV You know that many runners enter a race, and only one of them wins the prize. So run to win! 


NRSV Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 


HCSB Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race,a but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.


NLT-SE Don’t you realize that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize? So run to win! 


CEB Don’t you know that all the runners in the stadium run, but only one gets the prize? So run to win. 


NJB Do you not realise that, though all the runners in the stadium take part in the race, only one of them gets the prize? Run like that—to win. 


TNIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 

We don’t seem so far out of sync here.

Russell


On 14 Feb 2016, at 5:34 am, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

So your recommendation for 1 Cor 9:24 is:

"Not have you had perceived, that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain."


The OEB currently reads:

Don't you know that on a racecourse, though all run, yet only one wins the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.


Which has a good natural English flow to it. Would a mix of your recommendation with this be more like:

Don't you know that for those racing to finish a racecourse, all run, yet only one wins the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.






If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/A-Stadium-is-about-604-5-feet-in-distance-tp551p553.html
To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

robin
In reply to this post by Timchambers
Not have you had perceived,
that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain. (~Robin)


(Timchambers)
Or this ...
Don't you know
that on a racecourse, though all run,
yet only one wins the prize?
Run in such a way that you may win.


(Robin)
What I'm attempting to do, here, is not only to convey the verse's thought,
as your reading does, indeed, do, but to also be as literal, and as accurate as possible;
that is, each Greek word should be accounted for, and done so in a systematicly concordant manner ...
Let's look at our above attempts, one one, one word at a time:

Line #1

The Greek verb "oidate" (V-RAI-2P) is Perfect Active indicative (RAI),
whereas your reading is Present Active Indicative (PAI); also,
there's another whole Greek word family for "you know" "ginOskete,"
wheras, the Greek word used here "oidate," being different, conveys
a different word thought or idea ... to perceive, instead of to know.

Actually, "oidate" reads "you have had perceived," but when used with
that particular Greek negaitve "ouk" it turns the thought into an implied
question, which expects a negative reply ... your "don't works this way ...


Line #2 ..."that on a racecourse, though all run" ...

The word "on" is the wrong preposition, which is "epi" (#1909), whereas,
the preposition, here, is "en" (#1722), which is "in" or "among" when plural.
And it was this, very preposition that got me digging deeper into the verse,
because most translations have this saying, something to the effect:
..."racing IN the stadium"...

However, the word "stadium" is actually a measurement of length/distance,
which has, overtime become an modern idiom for the building, itself, but back
then, and in all seven NT verses where it is found, it's clearly talking about a distance.
... your use of "racecourse" ... is heads and shoulders about most translation, but
you had to use the wrong preposition to do so, which again, is why I found this verse
challanging; that is, to capture your thought of "racecourse" or my "a stadium [length],"
we have to deal with the preposition "in" ... which resolves itself, when we recognize that
the definite article "hoi" (the [ones]), the verb "trechontes" (racing), and the adjective "pantes"
(all [ones]) are, of course, plural ... thus, we can read the preposition "en" or "in" as ..."among,"
and thereby shift it's application from the "racecourse/stadium [length]" to the runners, themselves ..
..."among the [ones] racing" ...

One final quibble about your reading, here, is that you left out any English acknowlegement of
the Greek word or particle "men" (#3303; "indeed"); and you wouldn't be alone in this, as you will find
in a good many other translation; however, these are God's words, so let's give Him credit for
knowing what He wants to say, and how He wants to say it ... "indeed, all, they race" ...


Line 3 ..."yet only one wins the prize" ...

When editorially adding words, to God's words, we should always alert the reader to such enhancements;
that is, use some method of showing that the word is something the compiler has added ...I do this with
brackets, such as you can see, above, with ..."stadium [length]" ... That is, if you really feel there's a need
for adding "only" then it would be prudent to put it in brackets ..."[only]" ... Notice, if you will, that I too felt the need to enhance, here, but did so using the bracketed ..."yet [but]" ...

Where you read "prize," I read "the ruling" ..."to brabeion" ...
You left out the definite article, and I'm not sure that "brabeion" exaclty equates to a "prize," although you could be correct; however, were talking here about something a "brabeus" or Greek umpire (director, or arbiter to the public Greek games) presents to the winner; that is the umpire ("brabeus")
makes a ruling ("brabeion"), and then bestows the winner with a garland or wreath ... it's a prize, I guess, but think about it like a baseball game ..."it's not an out, until he calls it an out" ... it's more so, a "ruling"

And in line with this thought, this so-called winner ... you say he "wins," and yet I'm unable to find any word in the Greek NT that actually conveys this exact thought ...That is the Greek word, here, is "lambanei" (#2983), which is sort of an odd-duck of a word. It means to take in whatever manner; it's related to "dechomai" (#1209; to accept or receive), and yet it is distinct from that, in that it means to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ... Odd right, me thinks there's more to this, in the mind of our apostle Paul, then at first meet the eye; what. I'm not sure, but to simple say ..."wins" ... is not as accurate a word thought as ..."he obtains" ... [I'll talk about this some more in our discusson of your Line #4]

Line #4 ... "Run in such a way that you may win"

Your "Run" works ... most translations read it this way; however, as we've already determined, Pauls analogy, here (as well, as in many other of his example lessons), deals with contest, here it's a "race,"
so why not be consistent ...it is running, for sure, but it's the running in a race, so it's more os .."racing" ...
Which this in mind, I've adjust all such words, in all 13 of our apostle Paul's epistles to us, as follows:

5143  GK5556    edramon (p2)    I had raced    V-2AAI-1S.5627
5143  GK5556    etrechete (p1/1)    you were racing    V-IAI-2P.5707
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I race    V-PAI-1S.5719
5143  GK5556    trechousin (p1/1)    they race    V-PAI-3P.5719
5143  GK5556    trechete (p1/1)    be you racing    V-PAM-2P.5720
5143  GK5556    trechontes (p1/1)    racing    V-PAP-NPM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechontos (p1/1)    of racing    V-PAP-GSM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I should race    V-PAS-1S.5725
5143  GK5556    trechE (p1/1)    he should race    V-PAS-3S.5725


Now then, some more minor quibbles about your ...... "Run in such a way that you may win" ....
  (before I get back to what I'd mentioned in Line #3 that there was more to talk about)

a) "run in such a way" ..."thus {3779 ADV} be you racing {5143 V-PAM-2P}" ...
Your "run" works, in that it can be read as an Imperative, but I've found that all my reading of Paul's Imperative verbs, seem to call for "-ing" ending ... "be you running" ...

Also, there is, of course, no such preposition "in" present in this phrase,
nor is there any word, there, for ..."way" ... (the Greek noun #3598; "hodon, hodoi, hodois, hodous")  
What is present, in this phrase, is the Adverb "thus", which modifies the verb "be you running" ...

b) The Conjunction, here, is ..."hina" ... not "hoti" ...
Not a difference that many would notice, I'm sure, but a difference nevertheless;
Conjunction "hoti" is where you would read the simple English word ..."that" ...
Conjunction "hina," found here in this verse, is where you would read the hyphenated English ..."so-that" ...
Does this make a real difference ... I think so ... but you try it out for yourself, using a couple random examples ...I think you'll find "so-that" involves a different mental word though ... Ummmm?    


c) ..."that you may win" ... the verb, here, is a Subjunctive ... I've found that it works best to read these with the helper word "should" instead of "may" ...

But here's the thing I wanted to talk to you about, as mentioned before ... and why Greek reading of a verse is so very interesting to look at closer, than just taking some English version that sort of meets the needs, if one isn't all that interested in seeing what God actually had to say ...

Your reading simply restates the word though of "win" from Line #3,
but notice, dear reader, these are not the same two words ...
..."lambanei" (#2983) ...and..."katalabEte" (#2638) ...

Remember I mentioned that "lambanei" or "obtain" merely means "to take in whatever manner;
to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ...

But "katalabEte" is a combination Greek word (I tend to show these to the reader as hyphenated),
which not only contains the word #2983 thought of "to obtain," but also the preposition "kata," which
admittedly so, is one of the more difficult prepositions, because it's reads in a number of different ways,
but think of it, here, as not only ..."according-to" ... but also as "down" ... or better yet ..."down-from"

According-to, down-from, down-along-from ...What?  
Obtain down from ... smarter question is ... From Who?

"Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain" ... From THE UMPIRE!

Good talking with you, Timchambers,
Robin

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

russellallen
Administrator

(Robin) 
What I'm attempting to do, here, is not only to convey the verse's thought, as your reading does, indeed, do, but to also be as literal, and as accurate as possible; that is, each Greek word should be accounted for, and done so in a systematicly concordant manner ... 

Hi Robin

I appreciate your desire to understand the Bible and communicate that to readers.

I thought I would talk a bit about your points in the context of the aims of the OEB.

The OEB aims to be a translation which is usable within a religious community, not just usable for private study (though that is important of course). As such it should be somewhat standalone - that is it can be used by itself without too much risk of giving the reader a misleading understanding of its contents. A translation for purely private use could be made to be part of a range of tools, for example a lexicon, interlinear, other translations etc. But a translation which is suitable for reading aloud in a church for example needs to be in clear natural English and to communicate its meaning to an audience which doesn't have immediate access to tools, commentaries etc or even the background needed to use them.

So whichever way we translate the underlying Greek and Hebrew, the result needs to be as natural sounding to the listener as the original languages were natural sounding to the original listeners.

The difficulty of trying to keep grammatical structure and even concordance from the Greek/Hebrew in the translated English is that it almost always causes the English to be strange and unnatural. 

This is fine if your intention is to create a tool to help people mediate between translation and source. A so called "woodenly literal" translation could be very useful for someone who is not fluent in Koine but has in front of them both a Greek NT and something like the OEB.

But for a project like the OEB, too much focus on concordance and the Greek/Hebrew grammar is likely to end up with a translation that communicates less to its audience not more.

Obviously natural English isn't enough to ensure accuracy! But given the aims of the OEB, I think that clear and natural English, even at the expense of concordance or the original grammatical structures of the Greek/Hebrew is a necessary precondition of accuracy.

I would go further and say that accuracy isn't an inherent context free feature of a translation but something which emerges out of the interaction of the author, translator, text and reader (and in the case of the Bible, God's spirit). Accuracy is dynamic, a verb not a noun.

It isn't so much that 'literal' or 'dynamic' approaches to translation are inherently more accurate, but each prioritises different elements in their common attempt to communicate the impact of the original texts.

The approach of the OEB so far has been to try to minimise the strangeness of the language so as to best communicate the strangeness of the stories.

Best wishes, Russell


On 14 Feb 2016, at 4:43 PM, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not have you had perceived,
that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain. (~Robin)


(Timchambers)
Or this ...
Don't you know
that on a racecourse, though all run,
yet only one wins the prize?
Run in such a way that you may win.


(Robin)
What I'm attempting to do, here, is not only to convey the verse's thought,
as your reading does, indeed, do, but to also be as literal, and as accurate as possible;
that is, each Greek word should be accounted for, and done so in a systematicly concordant manner ...
Let's look at our above attempts, one one, one word at a time:

Line #1

The Greek verb "oidate" (V-RAI-2P) is Perfect Active indicative (RAI),
whereas your reading is Present Active Indicative (PAI); also,
there's another whole Greek word family for "you know" "ginOskete,"
wheras, the Greek word used here "oidate," being different, conveys
a different word thought or idea ... to perceive, instead of to know.

Actually, "oidate" reads "you have had perceived," but when used with
that particular Greek negaitve "ouk" it turns the thought into an implied
question, which expects a negative reply ... your "don't works this way ...


Line #2 ..."that on a racecourse, though all run" ...

The word "on" is the wrong preposition, which is "epi" (#1909), whereas,
the preposition, here, is "en" (#1722), which is "in" or "among" when plural.
And it was this, very preposition that got me digging deeper into the verse,
because most translations have this saying, something to the effect:
..."racing IN the stadium"...

However, the word "stadium" is actually a measurement of length/distance,
which has, overtime become an modern idiom for the building, itself, but back
then, and in all seven NT verses where it is found, it's clearly talking about a distance.
... your use of "racecourse" ... is heads and shoulders about most translation, but
you had to use the wrong preposition to do so, which again, is why I found this verse
challanging; that is, to capture your thought of "racecourse" or my "a stadium [length],"
we have to deal with the preposition "in" ... which resolves itself, when we recognize that
the definite article "hoi" (the [ones]), the verb "trechontes" (racing), and the adjective "pantes"
(all [ones]) are, of course, plural ... thus, we can read the preposition "en" or "in" as ..."among,"
and thereby shift it's application from the "racecourse/stadium [length]" to the runners, themselves ..
..."among the [ones] racing" ...

One final quibble about your reading, here, is that you left out any English acknowlegement of
the Greek word or particle "men" (#3303; "indeed"); and you wouldn't be alone in this, as you will find
in a good many other translation; however, these are God's words, so let's give Him credit for
knowing what He wants to say, and how He wants to say it ... "indeed, all, they race" ...


Line 3 ..."yet only one wins the prize" ...

When editorially adding words, to God's words, we should always alert the reader to such enhancements;
that is, use some method of showing that the word is something the compiler has added ...I do this with
brackets, such as you can see, above, with ..."stadium [length]" ... That is, if you really feel there's a need
for adding "only" then it would be prudent to put it in brackets ..."[only]" ... Notice, if you will, that I too felt the need to enhance, here, but did so using the bracketed ..."yet [but]" ...

Where you read "prize," I read "the ruling" ..."to brabeion" ...
You left out the definite article, and I'm not sure that "brabeion" exaclty equates to a "prize," although you could be correct; however, were talking here about something a "brabeus" or Greek umpire (director, or arbiter to the public Greek games) presents to the winner; that is the umpire ("brabeus")
makes a ruling ("brabeion"), and then bestows the winner with a garland or wreath ... it's a prize, I guess, but think about it like a baseball game ..."it's not an out, until he calls it an out" ... it's more so, a "ruling"

And in line with this thought, this so-called winner ... you say he "wins," and yet I'm unable to find any word in the Greek NT that actually conveys this exact thought ...That is the Greek word, here, is "lambanei" (#2983), which is sort of an odd-duck of a word. It means to take in whatever manner; it's related to "dechomai" (#1209; to accept or receive), and yet it is distinct from that, in that it means to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ... Odd right, me thinks there's more to this, in the mind of our apostle Paul, then at first meet the eye; what. I'm not sure, but to simple say ..."wins" ... is not as accurate a word thought as ..."he obtains" ... [I'll talk about this some more in our discusson of your Line #4]

Line #4 ... "Run in such a way that you may win"

Your "Run" works ... most translations read it this way; however, as we've already determined, Pauls analogy, here (as well, as in many other of his example lessons), deals with contest, here it's a "race,"
so why not be consistent ...it is running, for sure, but it's the running in a race, so it's more os .."racing" ...
Which this in mind, I've adjust all such words, in all 13 of our apostle Paul's epistles to us, as follows:

5143  GK5556    edramon (p2)    I had raced    V-2AAI-1S.5627
5143  GK5556    etrechete (p1/1)    you were racing    V-IAI-2P.5707
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I race    V-PAI-1S.5719
5143  GK5556    trechousin (p1/1)    they race    V-PAI-3P.5719
5143  GK5556    trechete (p1/1)    be you racing    V-PAM-2P.5720
5143  GK5556    trechontes (p1/1)    racing    V-PAP-NPM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechontos (p1/1)    of racing    V-PAP-GSM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I should race    V-PAS-1S.5725
5143  GK5556    trechE (p1/1)    he should race    V-PAS-3S.5725


Now then, some more minor quibbles about your ...... "Run in such a way that you may win" ....
  (before I get back to what I'd mentioned in Line #3 that there was more to talk about)

a) "run in such a way" ..."thus {3779 ADV} be you racing {5143 V-PAM-2P}" ...
Your "run" works, in that it can be read as an Imperative, but I've found that all my reading of Paul's Imperative verbs, seem to call for "-ing" ending ... "be you running" ...

Also, there is, of course, no such preposition "in" present in this phrase,
nor is there any word, there, for ..."way" ... (the Greek noun #3598; "hodon, hodoi, hodois, hodous")  
What is present, in this phrase, is the Adverb "thus", which modifies the verb "be you running" ...

b) The Conjunction, here, is ..."hina" ... not "hoti" ...
Not a difference that many would notice, I'm sure, but a difference nevertheless;
Conjunction "hoti" is where you would read the simple English word ..."that" ...
Conjunction "hina," found here in this verse, is where you would read the hyphenated English ..."so-that" ...
Does this make a real difference ... I think so ... but you try it out for yourself, using a couple random examples ...I think you'll find "so-that" involves a different mental word though ... Ummmm?    


c) ..."that you may win" ... the verb, here, is a Subjunctive ... I've found that it works best to read these with the helper word "should" instead of "may" ...

But here's the thing I wanted to talk to you about, as mentioned before ... and why Greek reading of a verse is so very interesting to look at closer, than just taking some English version that sort of meets the needs, if one isn't all that interested in seeing what God actually had to say ...

Your reading simply restates the word though of "win" from Line #3,
but notice, dear reader, these are not the same two words ...
..."lambanei" (#2983) ...and..."katalabEte" (#2638) ...

Remember I mentioned that "lambanei" or "obtain" merely means "to take in whatever manner;
to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ...

But "katalabEte" is a combination Greek word (I tend to show these to the reader as hyphenated),
which not only contains the word #2983 thought of "to obtain," but also the preposition "kata," which
admittedly so, is one of the more difficult prepositions, because it's reads in a number of different ways,
but think of it, here, as not only ..."according-to" ... but also as "down" ... or better yet ..."down-from"

According-to, down-from, down-along-from ...What?  
Obtain down from ... smarter question is ... From Who?

"Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain" ... From THE UMPIRE!

Good talking with you, Timchambers,
Robin




If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/A-Stadium-is-about-604-5-feet-in-distance-tp551p560.html
To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
NAML
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance

robin
Good morning Russell,

Your explaination, concerning the OEB approach, is appreciated; and I do understand the need for a good "dynamic" rendition of the scriptures, there are a lot of them around, today, and more than one of these on my bookshelves ...

Also, I've never heard it said so well, so succinctly clear, meaningful, and communicating ... 

 "I would go further and say that accuracy isn't an inherent context free feature of a translation 
   but something which emerges out of the interaction of the author, translator, text and reader
  (and in the case of the Bible, God's spirit). Accuracy is dynamic, a verb not a noun." (~Russell)

... I'm going to file this one away, as one of my favorites; perhaps even incorporate it into some future posting, as if it were my own;
that's not to say, that this isn't my own way of thinking, but do, indeed,it say it well; hit the nail squarely on the head.

But with that duly acknowledged, there is such a thing as, over minimizing, in order to eliminate the "strangeness of the language."
Take, for example, the scriptural use of Figures of Speech; we could very easily anticipate that our reader, or church pew seater
"needs" to be dumbed-down to; that is, we might well think that the tangles need to be taken out of such Figures, so as to make
it "easier" on the layman reader, or even detached listener ... but such Figures are used, by God, in order to emphasize what is 
being said; it consists in the fact that a word or words are used out of their ordinary sense, or place, or manner, for the purpose 
of attracting our attention to what is thus said; it's form may not be true, or so true, to the literal meaning of the words; but it is
more tue to their real sense. Ignorance of such Figures has led to the grossest of errors, which have been caused either from 
the taking literally what is figurative, or from taking figuratively what is literal ... especially, especially when some compiler 
transforms how God, Himself, says something, into something more mildly vanilla-like, both in taste, texture, and meaning ...

Again, it isn't so much that 'literal' or 'dynamic' approaches to ... communicating ... are inherently more accurate, but this certainly
can not be similarly claimed about translation.  So yes, each approach does, indeed, prioritize different elements in their common
attempt to communicate the impact of the original texts, but the so-called "woodenly literal," when approached in the spirit of
listening for the sound of that  "gentle whisper" ...

That a pew sitter's itching ears "need" to be soothed, or the detached reader "needs" to be protected from having to exert some effort,
 ... is more the function of an intertainer, than that of a mentor, teacher, or scripture seeker.  So Yes, the approach of the OEB ...so far...
has been to try to "minimise the strangeness of the language," so as to best communicate the strangeness of the stories, but there was
some original intent, I'm sure, of the OEB evolving and blossoming into an ever more "meaningful" tool of study for the layman ...
Has it, then, reached the plateau of mediocrity, where it's so satisfied with itself, that it wouldn't dare to challange it's readers to some
bit of strangeness in it's stories. That is, is the OEB ..."only running on the racecourse" ... or ... "among the [ones] racing a stadium [length]"

Or, as someone posted back, in reply to my Layman's Companion reading of Philemon ..."why all the extra words?" ...
That is, there are no "extra words," but there are, in other attempts at compiling scriptures, a number of lost words,
cobbled words, buried words, mis-read and minimized words ... 

In this, a compilation for the layman seeking to "perceive," rather than merely to "know,"
there is a wealth of scriptural depth laid out for one to feast upon; grow fat, not anorexic!
For instance, in verse 1:7 below, you have the very "strange and difficult"  English reading, 
along with the actual Greek (and it's trasnsliteration, which is easier on the eyes) ... this is
provided, only, for the layman, so that he can actually see what the very words look like,
feel them, smell them, taste them, handle them, be aware of there underlying presence,
and then, of course, ignore them ... until later, when they just might come in handy, when
someone is attempting to pull the wool over your eyes, by for instance, telling you that 
there are too many "extra words" in some more "woodenly literal" reading. Notice, also,
if you will, that the verse is asterisked, and (if it shows on this site) three words are highlighted
in yellow ... this tells the reader that there are variations in source texts involved, and if
the seeking layman, were of a mind, there's also an attachment, which shows one just
what, exactly these variations are; that is, for the layman that doesn't want to be 
dumbed-down to, he can make up his own mind (as the spirit leads) about which of the
variants are valid to his way of "thinking" .... a thinking seeker, not a detached pew sitter.  
And then, set out for you, at the meal table, is the word for word details: there's the Strong's 
numbers, so you can easily begin check the word meanings out for yourself, in some 
lexicon ... Strong's isn't the final or best source, mind you, but for the layman, it's an 
excellant beginning, and once having such a start, there's no end to better sources
for word analysis available (but you need to start somewhere, and cant do this with 
a vanilla-pap reading that only wants to protect you from scriptural strangeness) ... there's
also the discription provided, of each form of each word; for example the verb declination
(that is, does it lean towards the first person "I and we," or second person "you," or
third person "he and they"); the gender and number (single or plural) is also provided, 
and sometimes this is particularly helpful whe you are attempting to hook certain words
together in the sentence ... Again, this is there to help the layman to determine for 
himself just what the verse says, because you will always find that differnt translations
will tell you different things, so here is the tool, laid out for you, so you dont have to 
take someone else's "word" for it ... Heaven forbid, that you'd want to think for yourself! 


(Russell)
The approach of the OEB so far has been to try to minimise the strangeness of the language
so as to best communicate the strangeness of the stories.

Best wishes, Russell

(Robin)
And my wish is, that the OEB would start racing, again, 
off from the starting blocks of that flat plateau,
racing a stadium length, so-that you should down-obtain ...

Not have you had perceived, 
that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length], 
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains? 
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain. (~Robin) 

Best wishes to you, too, Russell

***

"For to much grace and side-calling we hold at the love of you, 

that there has had been soothed the viscerals of the sanctified [ones] through you, brethrened." 

 

1:7* Χάριν γὰρ ἔχομεν πολλὴν καὶ παράκλησιν ἐπὶ τῇ ἀγάπῃ σου, ὅτι τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ, ἀδελφέ.

 charin gar eschmen pollEn kai paraklEsin epi tE agapE sou hoti ta splagchna tOn hagiOn anapepautai dia sou adelphe

 

to a grace {5485 N-ASF} for {1063 CONJ} we hold {2192 V-PAI-1P} to much a [one] {4183 A-ASF} and {2532 CONJ} to a side-calling {3874 N-ASF} at/ on {1909 PREP} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto a love {0026 N-DSF} of you {1473 P-2GS} that {3754 CONJ} the [things] {3588 T-NPN} viscerals {4698 N-NPN} of the [ones] {3588 T-GPM} of sanctified [ones] {0040 A-GPM} there has had been soothed {0373 V-RPI-3S} through {1223 PREP} of you {1473 P-2GS} a brethrened! {0080 N-VSM} 

****




On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 2:36 AM, russellallen [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

(Robin) 
What I'm attempting to do, here, is not only to convey the verse's thought, as your reading does, indeed, do, but to also be as literal, and as accurate as possible; that is, each Greek word should be accounted for, and done so in a systematicly concordant manner ... 

Hi Robin

I appreciate your desire to understand the Bible and communicate that to readers.

I thought I would talk a bit about your points in the context of the aims of the OEB.

The OEB aims to be a translation which is usable within a religious community, not just usable for private study (though that is important of course). As such it should be somewhat standalone - that is it can be used by itself without too much risk of giving the reader a misleading understanding of its contents. A translation for purely private use could be made to be part of a range of tools, for example a lexicon, interlinear, other translations etc. But a translation which is suitable for reading aloud in a church for example needs to be in clear natural English and to communicate its meaning to an audience which doesn't have immediate access to tools, commentaries etc or even the background needed to use them.

So whichever way we translate the underlying Greek and Hebrew, the result needs to be as natural sounding to the listener as the original languages were natural sounding to the original listeners.

The difficulty of trying to keep grammatical structure and even concordance from the Greek/Hebrew in the translated English is that it almost always causes the English to be strange and unnatural. 

This is fine if your intention is to create a tool to help people mediate between translation and source. A so called "woodenly literal" translation could be very useful for someone who is not fluent in Koine but has in front of them both a Greek NT and something like the OEB.

But for a project like the OEB, too much focus on concordance and the Greek/Hebrew grammar is likely to end up with a translation that communicates less to its audience not more.

Obviously natural English isn't enough to ensure accuracy! But given the aims of the OEB, I think that clear and natural English, even at the expense of concordance or the original grammatical structures of the Greek/Hebrew is a necessary precondition of accuracy.

I would go further and say that accuracy isn't an inherent context free feature of a translation but something which emerges out of the interaction of the author, translator, text and reader (and in the case of the Bible, God's spirit). Accuracy is dynamic, a verb not a noun.

It isn't so much that 'literal' or 'dynamic' approaches to translation are inherently more accurate, but each prioritises different elements in their common attempt to communicate the impact of the original texts.

The approach of the OEB so far has been to try to minimise the strangeness of the language so as to best communicate the strangeness of the stories.

Best wishes, Russell


On 14 Feb 2016, at 4:43 PM, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not have you had perceived,
that among the [ones] racing a stadium [length],
indeed all, they race, yet [but] one to the ruling he obtains?
Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain. (~Robin)


(Timchambers)
Or this ...
Don't you know
that on a racecourse, though all run,
yet only one wins the prize?
Run in such a way that you may win.


(Robin)
What I'm attempting to do, here, is not only to convey the verse's thought,
as your reading does, indeed, do, but to also be as literal, and as accurate as possible;
that is, each Greek word should be accounted for, and done so in a systematicly concordant manner ...
Let's look at our above attempts, one one, one word at a time:

Line #1

The Greek verb "oidate" (V-RAI-2P) is Perfect Active indicative (RAI),
whereas your reading is Present Active Indicative (PAI); also,
there's another whole Greek word family for "you know" "ginOskete,"
wheras, the Greek word used here "oidate," being different, conveys
a different word thought or idea ... to perceive, instead of to know.

Actually, "oidate" reads "you have had perceived," but when used with
that particular Greek negaitve "ouk" it turns the thought into an implied
question, which expects a negative reply ... your "don't works this way ...


Line #2 ..."that on a racecourse, though all run" ...

The word "on" is the wrong preposition, which is "epi" (#1909), whereas,
the preposition, here, is "en" (#1722), which is "in" or "among" when plural.
And it was this, very preposition that got me digging deeper into the verse,
because most translations have this saying, something to the effect:
..."racing IN the stadium"...

However, the word "stadium" is actually a measurement of length/distance,
which has, overtime become an modern idiom for the building, itself, but back
then, and in all seven NT verses where it is found, it's clearly talking about a distance.
... your use of "racecourse" ... is heads and shoulders about most translation, but
you had to use the wrong preposition to do so, which again, is why I found this verse
challanging; that is, to capture your thought of "racecourse" or my "a stadium [length],"
we have to deal with the preposition "in" ... which resolves itself, when we recognize that
the definite article "hoi" (the [ones]), the verb "trechontes" (racing), and the adjective "pantes"
(all [ones]) are, of course, plural ... thus, we can read the preposition "en" or "in" as ..."among,"
and thereby shift it's application from the "racecourse/stadium [length]" to the runners, themselves ..
..."among the [ones] racing" ...

One final quibble about your reading, here, is that you left out any English acknowlegement of
the Greek word or particle "men" (#3303; "indeed"); and you wouldn't be alone in this, as you will find
in a good many other translation; however, these are God's words, so let's give Him credit for
knowing what He wants to say, and how He wants to say it ... "indeed, all, they race" ...


Line 3 ..."yet only one wins the prize" ...

When editorially adding words, to God's words, we should always alert the reader to such enhancements;
that is, use some method of showing that the word is something the compiler has added ...I do this with
brackets, such as you can see, above, with ..."stadium [length]" ... That is, if you really feel there's a need
for adding "only" then it would be prudent to put it in brackets ..."[only]" ... Notice, if you will, that I too felt the need to enhance, here, but did so using the bracketed ..."yet [but]" ...

Where you read "prize," I read "the ruling" ..."to brabeion" ...
You left out the definite article, and I'm not sure that "brabeion" exaclty equates to a "prize," although you could be correct; however, were talking here about something a "brabeus" or Greek umpire (director, or arbiter to the public Greek games) presents to the winner; that is the umpire ("brabeus")
makes a ruling ("brabeion"), and then bestows the winner with a garland or wreath ... it's a prize, I guess, but think about it like a baseball game ..."it's not an out, until he calls it an out" ... it's more so, a "ruling"

And in line with this thought, this so-called winner ... you say he "wins," and yet I'm unable to find any word in the Greek NT that actually conveys this exact thought ...That is the Greek word, here, is "lambanei" (#2983), which is sort of an odd-duck of a word. It means to take in whatever manner; it's related to "dechomai" (#1209; to accept or receive), and yet it is distinct from that, in that it means to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ... Odd right, me thinks there's more to this, in the mind of our apostle Paul, then at first meet the eye; what. I'm not sure, but to simple say ..."wins" ... is not as accurate a word thought as ..."he obtains" ... [I'll talk about this some more in our discusson of your Line #4]

Line #4 ... "Run in such a way that you may win"

Your "Run" works ... most translations read it this way; however, as we've already determined, Pauls analogy, here (as well, as in many other of his example lessons), deals with contest, here it's a "race,"
so why not be consistent ...it is running, for sure, but it's the running in a race, so it's more os .."racing" ...
Which this in mind, I've adjust all such words, in all 13 of our apostle Paul's epistles to us, as follows:

5143  GK5556    edramon (p2)    I had raced    V-2AAI-1S.5627
5143  GK5556    etrechete (p1/1)    you were racing    V-IAI-2P.5707
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I race    V-PAI-1S.5719
5143  GK5556    trechousin (p1/1)    they race    V-PAI-3P.5719
5143  GK5556    trechete (p1/1)    be you racing    V-PAM-2P.5720
5143  GK5556    trechontes (p1/1)    racing    V-PAP-NPM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechontos (p1/1)    of racing    V-PAP-GSM.5723
5143  GK5556    trechO (p1/1)    I should race    V-PAS-1S.5725
5143  GK5556    trechE (p1/1)    he should race    V-PAS-3S.5725


Now then, some more minor quibbles about your ...... "Run in such a way that you may win" ....
  (before I get back to what I'd mentioned in Line #3 that there was more to talk about)

a) "run in such a way" ..."thus {3779 ADV} be you racing {5143 V-PAM-2P}" ...
Your "run" works, in that it can be read as an Imperative, but I've found that all my reading of Paul's Imperative verbs, seem to call for "-ing" ending ... "be you running" ...

Also, there is, of course, no such preposition "in" present in this phrase,
nor is there any word, there, for ..."way" ... (the Greek noun #3598; "hodon, hodoi, hodois, hodous")  
What is present, in this phrase, is the Adverb "thus", which modifies the verb "be you running" ...

b) The Conjunction, here, is ..."hina" ... not "hoti" ...
Not a difference that many would notice, I'm sure, but a difference nevertheless;
Conjunction "hoti" is where you would read the simple English word ..."that" ...
Conjunction "hina," found here in this verse, is where you would read the hyphenated English ..."so-that" ...
Does this make a real difference ... I think so ... but you try it out for yourself, using a couple random examples ...I think you'll find "so-that" involves a different mental word though ... Ummmm?    


c) ..."that you may win" ... the verb, here, is a Subjunctive ... I've found that it works best to read these with the helper word "should" instead of "may" ...

But here's the thing I wanted to talk to you about, as mentioned before ... and why Greek reading of a verse is so very interesting to look at closer, than just taking some English version that sort of meets the needs, if one isn't all that interested in seeing what God actually had to say ...

Your reading simply restates the word though of "win" from Line #3,
but notice, dear reader, these are not the same two words ...
..."lambanei" (#2983) ...and..."katalabEte" (#2638) ...

Remember I mentioned that "lambanei" or "obtain" merely means "to take in whatever manner;
to receive as merely a self-prompted action, without necessarily signifying a favorable reception ...

But "katalabEte" is a combination Greek word (I tend to show these to the reader as hyphenated),
which not only contains the word #2983 thought of "to obtain," but also the preposition "kata," which
admittedly so, is one of the more difficult prepositions, because it's reads in a number of different ways,
but think of it, here, as not only ..."according-to" ... but also as "down" ... or better yet ..."down-from"

According-to, down-from, down-along-from ...What?  
Obtain down from ... smarter question is ... From Who?

"Thus be you racing, so-that you should down-obtain" ... From THE UMPIRE!

Good talking with you, Timchambers,
Robin




If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/A-Stadium-is-about-604-5-feet-in-distance-tp551p560.html
To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
NAML



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/A-Stadium-is-about-604-5-feet-in-distance-tp551p561.html
To unsubscribe from A Stadium is about 604.5 feet in distance, click here.
NAML

Loading...