Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

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Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
Interesting argument for this translation for Philipians 2:3 --
His suggestions:

For example:

    Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility hold others up above yourselves.

    Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility lift others up above yourselves.

    Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility elevate others above yourselves.

    Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility place others above yourselves.

his reasons here:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2013/07/in-humility-hold-others-above-yourself.html
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Brian J. Henry
I love Richard Beck.

For reference, how it currently reads:
2:3 Nothing should be done in a factious spirit or from vanity, but each of you should with all humility regard others as better than himself,
4 and one and all should consider, not only their own interests, but also the interests of others.
Someone in the comments suggested "priority" and he liked that too. I like "lift up" the best of those four those I think.

Perhaps:
2:3 Nothing should be done out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but rather each of you should with all humility lift others up/prioritize others above yourselves,
4 not only being concerned for your own interests, but the interests of others as well.
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
I agree with your suggestion of "lift others up", Brian, and glad you liked the post from Richard as well.... :-)

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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

russellallen
Administrator
That was a good post, although I come to it late :)  

I've put in the latest source:

\v 3 Nothing should be done out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility lift others up above yourselves, \v 4 considering not only your own interests but also the interests of others.

Does this work for people?

Russell


On 27/07/2013, at 9:12 AM, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with your suggestion of "lift others up", Brian, and glad you liked the post from Richard as well.... :-)




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NAML

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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
I think it's great, Russell....
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
One other possible one-off verse to consider.

Possibly translating "Heaven" as "sky" in Genesis 1.1 The OEB reads this way:

"1 In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth"

See this argument for this here:

The problem is that the Hebrew for the first word here means “sky,” not “heaven.” In English, the birds, clouds, rain, etc. are all in the sky, not in heaven. Heaven, by contrast, is, depending on one’s theology, either where good people go when they die or where all people go when they die.

A translation variation, “heavens,” is a little better, but only to the extent that that Biblish word has entered the mainstream. People don’t talk about “cloudy heavens” when it’s overcast. They talk about a cloudy sky.

So it seems to me that Genesis 1:1 should talk about the “the sky and the land” or “the sky and the earth.”

http://goddidntsaythat.com/2013/10/09/what-did-god-really-create-in-the-beginning/

See what you think...
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
Another question:

Currently, Matthew 24:28 and in the parallel verse in Luke 17:37 the OEB currently uses the word "Vulture" for the word "aetoi"  the plural for “aetos.”

The OEB Matt 24:28:
Wherever a dead body lies, there will the vultures flock.’

And OEB Luke 17:37:
“Where will it be, Master?” asked the disciples. “Where there is a body,” said Jesus, “‘there will the vultures flock.’”

I've read some online that the word "aetoi" is more clearly "eagle." And was only referenced as "vulture" by translators due to the context of the verse about the birds gathering around a dead body.

Is the word "aetoi" or "ateos" exclusively meaning "eagle" or can it mean "bird in general" or "Vulture"?
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
Timchambers wrote
Another question:

Currently, Matthew 24:28 and in the parallel verse in Luke 17:37 the OEB currently uses the word "Vulture" for the word "aetoi"  the plural for “aetos.”
...
Is the word "aetoi" or "ateos" exclusively meaning "eagle" or can it mean "bird in general" or "Vulture"?
What are the chances?
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
Trying out Javascripture, I happened on Zephaniah 2. The page opened there by default. Verse 14 reads:
And herds will lie down in her, amidst every beast of the earth,
Both desert owl and screech owl will lodge in its capitals.
The owl will hoot in the window; the raven on the doorstep,
for the city is destroyed.
There are some birds mentioned there, too. I think Kent is very nearly right on with his translation of this verse. Other versions, including the NIV and ESV, are afraid to translate the last line, "For the city is destroyed" -- though that is the obvious choice. They go with "the cedar beams will be exposed" despite that being illogical, and despite the use of the same root two verses earlier to mean "destroyed."

I'd like to suggest a couple of edits. Amidst every beast of the earth should be modernized as along with every kind of wild animal. The word goy in this context means "family" (Lat. genus, cf. gens).

The identification of birds is going to be speculative, but I think he's researched it. The only thing I have a question about is the phonetic emendation of chorev, "desolate," to ghorev, "raven." Or rather the speculation that "raven" could have been pronounced "hraben." Oh, wait. It was.
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
I also was in a class at church where we talked about 1 Peter 4.3,4.
Surely in the past you have spent time enough living as the Gentiles delight to live. For your path has lain among scenes of debauchery, licentiousness, drunkenness, revelry, hard-drinking, and profane idolatry. And, because you do not run to the same extremes of profligacy as others, they are astonished, and malign you.
The result of the discussion left me thinking that we really ought to update these terms. Like vultures vs. eagles, they really must refer to behaviors and attitudes we actually observe with frequency.

I suggest:

Surely in the past you have spent time enough seeking fulfilment as the people of this world do. You have resorted to anarchy, emotionalism, intoxication, crowd frenzy, social drinking, and flagrant occult practices. And, because you do not give yourselves to the same excess as others, they are amazed, and they blaspheme.

I'd just add that the last word, blaspheme, has no object. Most versions supply "you" but the implied object is the Lord. We see that in our own experience.

Almost forgot. People of this world is how I translate ton ethnon, seeing it as a calque of the Hebrew ha-goyim and the Latin gens. In other words, it refers to the structures of social organization of this present age, which in Peter's view stand opposed to the church and the gospel.
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
1 Timothy 2:8 uses a different word for holy (AV lifting up holy hands) than usual. OEB translates it with hands reverently uplifted. I think it is an allusion to Ps 24.3, the clean of hands, the pure of heart. Would the team consider amending 1T 2.8 to with clean hands uplifted? Especially since in the context Paul is exhorting men to behave well and to refrain from anger and disagreement (NRSV). Those two sins appear to be similar to the advice he gives women in the following verses.

As long as we're talking about this allusion, I've noticed some time ago that Ps 24.6, and seek the face of the God of Jacob, in almost all versions, interpolates God of for "clarity," though the name does not appear in the verse. In my devotional study of the psalm, I feel it is important to bring out the literal meaning here as much as possible. It seems to me that the translators are unnecessarily adding to the sacred text to use God here -- and, in fact, we are subtracting, as well, since we cut out the word your. It would not be interpolation to say who seek your face in Jacob. Compare the well-known Micah 5:2 where a null morpheme, a quasi-construct state, is interpreted as in. The devotional meaning I am referring to is that those who seek God's face are following the example of their father Jacob.
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
Typo in 1 Cor 2.2. The dev text reads, I would forget everything Jesus Christ — and him crucified.

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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Coburn
Romans 7.20 currently reads: But, when I do the thing that I want not to do, the action is no longer my own, but is done by the sin which is within me.

I was just thinking about this verse today. I don't think there is an easy way to translate it that does not assume some kind of theological perspective. But I think this would be closer to true, and perhaps closer to the simplicity of the Greek: But, when I do the thing that I do not want to do, the action is not truly my own, but is caused by something inside me, by sin.

Not sure if that's any better, but I wanted to try to remove the implication that we are not accountable for what we do, because of a nebulous alternate agent called "sin." I'm having trouble taking my own advice and simplifying the language.
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

robin
In reply to this post by Brian J. Henry


"To not-yet-one [thing] according-to a faction or vainglory,
but unto the humility; to one-another deeming over-holding of yourselves;" (~Robin)

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
Rather, in humility hold others up above yourselves."
(~Timchambers and Brian Henry)



(Robin)
The question, here, appears to be how best to read the verb "huperechontas" ...
It's a combination (over + holding) Greek present active participle, with an accusative element, which I try to consistently read by including "to -" ...to over-holding {5242 V-PAP-APM} ...

Your suggestion of "lift" doesn't work, because that English word belongs to yet another Greek word family:

0142  GK0149    aras (1)    having lifted    V-AAP-NSM.5660
0142  GK0149    arthEtO (1)    be there lifted    V-APM-3S.5682
0142  GK0149    * arthE *GCT, different word, see 1808    he should be lifted    V-APS-3S.5686
0142  GK0149    Erken (1)    He has had lifted    V-RAI-3S.5758

Also, "up" is the wrong preposition; that is the combination verb includes "over" or "huper":

0303  GK0324    ana (2)    up/ each/ again/ away/ back/ prefix re-    PREP

And, "others" is also yet another Greek word family; it's close, but not accurate ...

0243  GK0257    allos (2)    another [one]    A-NSM.01
0243  GK0257    allO (7)    unto another [one]    A-DSM.03
0243  GK0257    allon (4)    to another [one]    A-ASM.04
0243  GK0257    alloi (2)    other [ones]    A-NPM.05
0243  GK0257    allOn (1)    of other [ones]    A-GPM.06
0243  GK0257    allois (3)    unto other [ones]    A-DPM.07
0243  GK0257    allous (2)    to other [ones]    A-APM.08
0243  GK0257    allE (7)    another [one]    A-NSF.09
0243  GK0257    allEs (1)    of another [one]    A-GSF.10
0243  GK0257    allas (1)    to other [ones]    A-APF.16
0243  GK0257    allo (1)    another [thing]    A-NSN.17
0243  GK0257    allo (1)    to another [thing]    A-ASN.20
0243  GK0257    alla (1)    to other [things]    A-APN.24

...that is, the verse actually uses "allElous," which can be found under Strongs #0240,
or Gooerick/Kohlenberger's (GK) numbering system as #0257 ...

0240  GK0253    allElOn (7)    of one-another [ones]    C-GPM.06
0240  GK0253    allElois (6)    unto one-another [ones]    C-DPM.07
0240  GK0253    allElous (25)    to one-another [ones]   C-APM.08
0240  GK0253    allElOn (1)    of one-another [things]    C-GPN.22

 

***

2:3* μηδὲν κατὰ ἐρίθειαν ἢ κενοδοξίαν, ἀλλὰ τῇ ταπεινοφροσύνῃ ἀλλήλους ἡγούμενοι ὑπερέχοντας ἑαυτῶν·

mEden kata eritheian E kenodoxian alla tE tapeinophrosunE allElous hEgoumenoi huperechontas heautOn

To not-yet-one [thing] according-to a faction or vainglory,
but unto the humility; to one-another deeming over-holding of yourselves;

to not-yet-one [thing] {3367 A-ASN-N} according-to {2596 PREP} to a faction {2052 N-ASF} or {2228 PRT} to a vainglory {2754 N-ASF} but {0235 CONJ} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto a humility {5012 N-DSF} to one-another [ones] {0240 C-APM} deeming {2233 V-PNP-NPM} to over-holding {5242 V-PAP-APM} of yourselves {1438 F-2GPM}

***
2:3* Spelling

κατὰ
Byz ς

kata
according-to {2596 PREP}

*kat
according-to {2596 PREP}

κατ'
WH


2:3* Different Word and Addition


D F G Byz syrh ς NR CEI ND Riv Dio NM

E
or {2228 PRT}

*mEde kata
nor-yet {3366 CONJ-N} according-to {2596 PREP}

μηδὲ κατὰ
‭א* A B C Ψ 33 81 104 365 1175 1241 1739 1881 pc itb itd vg cop Ambrosiaster WH (TILC) Nv

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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

robin
Errata:

...that is, the verse actually uses "allElous," which can be found under Strongs #0240,
or Gooerick/Kohlenberger's (GK) numbering system as ...#0253 ...

0240  GK0253    allElous (25)    to one-another [ones]   C-APM.08


The number 25 in parenthesis (25) indicates that in our apostle Paul's 13 epistles,
that this particular word ... form of this word "C-APM" ... is found 25 times.
The "C-" means that it's a recipocal pronoun; the "APM" means that it's an adjective,
plural, masculine ...

That decimal number at the end, is something I've added just to help sort such words in the master word list ... there are 24 different forms ( .01 - .24)  identifiable by their case, number, and gender (see below) ...that is, here, ".08" means that this is an "APM"

NSM = .01; GSM = .02; DSM = .03; ASM = .04; NPM = .05; GPM = .06; DPM = .07; APM = .08;
NSF = .09; GSF = .10; DSF = .11; ASF = .12; NPF = .13; GPF = .14; DPF = .15; APF = .16;
NSN = .17; GSN = .18; DSN = .19; ASN = .20; NPN = .21; GPN = .22; DPN =.23; APN = 24
 
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Re: Miscellaneous one-off fixes for different verses...

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
An interesting discussion online on the proper translation of this key verses (Gal 2:16, and Romans 3:22)

We might consider a simliar tact to the one here:

https://theologyandpeace.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/the-faithfulness-of-jesus-christ-correcting-a-deadly-mistranslation-to-advance-the-reformation-and-a-preview-of-brian-mclarens-new-book/