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Philippians

Brian J. Henry
This post was updated on .
Welp, we've been going through Philippians in the lectionary readings lately, and I have some free time, so I figured I'd get back to work on trying to do something here. :)

As a general note, more paragraph breaks would be good. I've broken them up here following the NET generally.

To all <Christ's people at>[the saints in] Philippi [who are in union with Christ Jesus,] <with the supervisors and assistants>[including the bishops and deacons,] from Paul and Timothy, <servants>[slaves] of Christ Jesus.
2 <May> [Grace and peace be with you from] God<,> our Father<,> and the Lord Jesus Christ <bless you, and give you peace.>
1. Traditionally this is saints (ESV, NRSV, NET). Other translations go with “holy ones/people” (KNT, NIV, NLT). There’s a lack of holiness going on here though haha. Also, following other places in the OEB, tried to go with the in Christ > union with Christ.
2. Nearly all translations use deacon. Personally I prefer bishop (NRSV) since even if the office hadn’t quite yet become what it would be now, it is the word they take it from. Otherwise, “overseers” is the popular alternative, though it seems awkward. “Supervisors” just sounds like we’re running a grocery store though. Perhaps, if we do want to avoid bishop, “church leaders” or something similar?
3. “Slaves” so NET, CEB, NLT, KNT

3 <Every recollection that I have of you is a cause of thankfulness to God,> [Every time I think of you I am thankful to God.]
4 <always, in every prayer that I offer for you all — my prayers are full of joy —> [Whenever I pray for you all, I always pray with joy
5 because of <the share that you have had>[your participation] in spreading the good news, from the first day that you received it until now.
6 For of this I am confident, that <he>[the one] who began a good work in you will <complete it in readiness for> [perfect it until] the day of Jesus Christ.
7 And, indeed, I am justified in feeling like this about you all; because you have a warm place in my heart <— you who all>, since both in my imprisonment and in the work of defending and <establishing>[confirming] the good news, <shared my privilege with me>[you all became partners with me in God’s grace].
8 God will bear me witness how I yearn over <you all>[all of you] with the <tenderness>[compassion] of Christ Jesus.
9 And what I pray for is this — that your love may grow <yet> stronger and stronger, with increasing knowledge and <all discernment, 10 <until you are able to appreciate all moral distinctions. And I pray, too, that you may be kept pure> [so you can determine what really matters, and thus be sincere] and blameless <against>[on] the day of Christ,
11 bearing a rich harvest of that righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
1. I like the NET’s “perfect it until.” NIV goes with a similar “carry it on to completion.”

12 Friends, I want you to realize that what has happened to me has actually served to <forward>[advance] the good news.
13 It has even become evident<, not only to all the imperial guard, but to> [to the whole Imperial Guard, and everyone else,] that it is for Christ's sake that I am in chains.
14 And besides this, most of our fellow followers have gained confidence in the Lord through my chains, and now <venture with far greater freedom> [more than ever dare] to speak of God's message fearlessly.
15 It is true that some do proclaim the Christ out of <J>[j]ealousy and <opposition>[rivalry]; but there are others who proclaim him from goodwill.
16 The latter do it <from> [out of] love for me, knowing that I have been <appointed to plead the cause of>[put in prison for defending] the good news.
17 The former spread the news of the Christ <in a factious spirit, and not sincerely, thinking> [out of selfish ambition, insincerely, hoping] to add to the pain of my chains.
18 But [so] what <of that>? <Only>[The important thing is] that <in some way or other, either with assumed or with real earnestness> [one way or another, whether their motives are false or true], Christ is being made known [announced/proclaimed?]; and at that I rejoice.
19 Yes, and I will [continue to] rejoice, for I know that, through your prayers and through a rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, ‘all this will make for my salvation.’
20 And this will fulfill my earnest expectation and hope that I will have no cause for shame, but that, with unfailing courage, now as <hitherto>[always], Christ will be honored in my body, whether by my life or by my death,
21 for to me life is Christ, and death is gain.
22 But <what if the life here in the body — if this brings me fruit from my labors? Then which to choose I cannot tell! I am sorely perplexed either way!>[if life here in the body means productive work for me, then I can’t tell which to choose! I’m torn between the two!]
23 My own desire is to depart and be with Christ, for this would be far better.
24 <But, for your sakes, it may be more needful that I should still> [However, it is more important that I remain here in the body for your sakes.]
25 <Yes,> [Since] I am confident that this is so, <and therefore> I am sure that I will <stay, and stay near you all, to promote your progress and joy in the>[remain, and stay alongside of you all, to help you to advance and rejoice in your] faith;[,]
26 so that, <when you once more have me among you, you, in your union with Christ Jesus, may find in me fresh cause for exultation. > 
1. Not sure what to do with that last sentence, it’s a bit of a mouthful . I like the “your union with Christ Jesus” bit though.

27 Under all circumstances let your lives be worthy of the good news of the Christ: so that, whether I come and see you, or whether I hear of your affairs at a distance, I may know that you are standing firm, <animated> [united] by one spirit, and joining with one <heart>[mind] in a common struggle <for the faith taught by the good news>[to remain faithful to the gospel],
28 without ever shrinking from your opponents. <To them this will be> [This is] a sign of their destruction and of your salvation — a sign from God.
29 For, on behalf of Christ, you have <had the privilege granted you,>[been granted the privilege] not only of trusting in him, but also of suffering on his behalf.
30 You will be engaged in the same hard struggle <as that which>[that] you once saw me waging, and which you hear that I am waging still.
1. I think I like the CEB at the end of v27 (“as you struggle together to remain faithful to the gospel.”)
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Philippians - Chapter 2

Brian J. Henry
This post was updated on .
Chapter 2

If, then, any encouragement comes through union with Christ, if there is any <persuasive power>[comfort] in love, if there is any communion with the Spirit, if there is any <tenderness or pity>[compassion or mercy],
2 < I entreat you to>[then] make my happiness complete <— Live together animated by the same spirit and in mutual love, one in heart, animated by one Spirit.> [and be of the same mind, by sharing the same love, being united in spirit, and having one purpose.]
3 Nothing should be done out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility lift others up above yourselves,
4 considering not only your own interests but also the interests of others.
5 Let the spirit of Christ Jesus be yours also.
 
6 Though the divine nature was his from the beginning, yet he did not look on equality with God as above all things to be clung to, 7 but impoverished himself by taking the nature of a servant and becoming like one of us; 8 he appeared among us as a man, and still further humbled himself by submitting even to death — to death on a cross! 9 And that is why God raised him to the very highest place, and gave him the name which stands above all other names, 10 so that in adoration of the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should acknowledge JESUS CHRIST as LORD — to the glory of God the Father.
1. 6-11 Should be formatted as a poem - There was a previous thread about this here, with other suggestions: http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Christological-Hymns-Liturgy-in-the-epistles-td131.html

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always been obedient in the past, so now work out your own salvation with anxious care, not only when I am with you, but all the more now that I am absent.
13 Remember [that] it is God who, in his kindness, is at work within you, enabling you both to will and to work.
14 In all that you do, avoid <murmuring> [grumbling] and dissension,
15 so as to prove yourselves blameless and innocent — ‘faultless children of God, in the midst of an evil-disposed and perverse generation,’ in which you are seen shining like stars in a dark world,
16 offering to them the message of life<; and>[.] Then I will be able at the day of Christ to boast that I did not run my course for nothing, or toil for nothing.
17 And yet, even if [my lifeblood must be poured out] when your faith is offered as a sacrifice to God, <my lifeblood must be poured out in addition, still>, I will [still be glad and rejoice with all of you] <rejoice and share the joy of you all>;
18 and you <must also rejoice and share my joy>[should also be glad and rejoice with me].
19 I hope<, however, as one who trusts> in the Lord Jesus <,> to send Timothy to you before long, so that I may <myself> be cheered [up] by receiving news of you.
20 For I have no one but him to send — no one of kindred spirit who would take the same genuine interest in your welfare.
21 They are all pursuing their own aims and not those of Christ Jesus.
22 But you know what Timothy has proved himself to be, and how, like a child working for his father, he worked hard with me in spreading the good news.
23 <It is Timothy, then, whom I hope to send, as soon as ever I can foresee how it will go with me.>[So I hope to send him as soon as I find out what will happen to me here.]
24 And I am confident, as one who trusts in the Lord Jesus, that before long I myself will follow.
25 [But for now,] <Still> I think it[‘s] necessary to send Epaphroditus [back] to you <now>, for he is my dear friend, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, and he was also your messenger to help me in my need.
26 For he has been longing to see you all, and has been distressed because you heard of his illness.
27 And I can assure you that his illness very nearly proved fatal. But God had <pity>[mercy] on him, and not [just] on him <only> but also on me, so that I might not have sorrow on [top of?] sorrow.
28 I am all the more ready, therefore, to send him, so that the sight of him may revive your spirits and my own sorrow be lightened.
29 Give him<, then,> the heartiest of Christian welcomes, and hold <such> people [like him] in great honor.
30 For it was owing to his devotion to the <Master>[Lord]'s work that he was at the point of death, having risked his own life <in the effort to supply what was wanting in the help that you sent me.> [to make up for the help you could not supply from far away.]
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Re: Philippians

Timchambers
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great additions here... thanks...
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Re: Philippians

Brian J. Henry
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Brian J. Henry
Chapter 3

In conclusion, my friends, [may] all joy be yours in your union with the Lord. To repeat what I have already written does not <weary>[bother] me, and is the safe course for you.
2 Beware of those <‘>dogs<’>! Beware of those mischievous workers! Beware of the men who mutilate themselves!
3 For it is we who are the circumcised — we whose worship is prompted by the Spirit of God, who exult in Christ Jesus, and who do not rely on external privileges;
4 though I, if anyone, have cause to rely even on them. If anyone thinks <he>[they] can rely on external privileges, <far more can I>[I can do better]!
5 I was circumcised when [I was] eight days old; I am an Israelite by birth, <and> of the tribe of Benjamin; I am a Hebrew, and the child of Hebrews. As to the Law, I was a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, I was a persecutor of the church; as to <such> righteousness <as is due>[according] to Law, I proved myself blameless.
1. Why is dogs in scare quotes?
7 But all the things which I once held to be gains I have now, for the Christ's sake, come to count as loss.
8 More than that, I count everything as loss, for the sake of the exceeding value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. And for his sake I have lost everything, and count it as <refuse>[trash], <if I may but>[so that I may] gain Christ
[, 9] and be found in union with him; <9> any righteousness that I have being, not the righteousness that results from Law, but the righteousness which comes through <faith in Christ>[the faithfulness of Christ] — <the>[a] righteousness <which is derived> from God <and>[that] is founded on <faith> [the Faithful One].
10 Then indeed I will know Christ, and the power of his resurrection, and all that it means to share his sufferings, 11 in the hope that, if I become like him in [his] death, I may possibly attain to the resurrection from the dead.
1. “faithfulness of christ,” so NET, CEB, Wright, and Campbell. For the second part, NET goes with “that is in fact based on Christ’s faithfulness” whereas Campbell opts for “on the basis of thefaithful one." (or "that faithful one") Related thread: http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Pistis-Christou-Faith-in-Christ-Faithfulness-of-Christ-td184.html
12 Not that I have already laid hold of it, or that I am already made perfect. But I press on, in the hope of actually laying hold of <that for which indeed I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.>[it, because Christ Jesus surely has laid hold of me.]
13 <For I, friends,>[My friends, I] do not regard myself as having <yet> laid hold of it [yet]. But this <one thing I do —>[is my one aim:] forgetting what lies behind, and straining every nerve for <that which lies in front,>[what lies ahead.]
14 I press on to[ward] the goal, to gain the prize of that heavenward call which God gave me through Christ Jesus.
15 [So] Let all of us<, then, whose faith is> [who are] mature think this way. Then, if on any matter you think otherwise, God will make that <also> plain to you [also].
16 <Only we are bound to order our lives by what we have already attained.> 
1. v12 that sentence is a wreck.
2. v16 I like NLT’s “But we must hold on to the progress we have already made.” Much clearer than ours and others.
17 My friends, unite in following my example, and <fix your eyes on>[pay attention to] those who are living by the pattern which we have set [for] you.
18 For there are many — of whom I have often told you, and <now> tell you [now] even with tears — who are living in enmity to the cross of the Christ.
19 The end of such people is ruin; for their appetites are their <God>[god], and they glory in their shame; their minds are <given up to>[focused on] earthly things.
20 But the State of which we are citizens is in heaven; and it is from heaven that we are eagerly looking for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who<, by the exercise of his power to bring everything into subjection to himself, will make this body that we have in our humiliation like to that body which he has in his glory.> [will transform our humble bodies so that they are like his glorious body, by the exercise of his power to bring everything into subjection to himself.]
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Re: Philippians

Brian J. Henry
This post was updated on .
Apologies, I just realized I hadn't ever finished this.
4 So then, my dear friends, whom I am longing to see — you who are my joy and my crown, stand fast in union with the Lord, dear friends.
2 I <entreat>[urge] Euodia, and I <entreat>[urge] Syntyche, to live in harmony, in union with the Lord;
3 yes, and I ask you, my true comrade, to <help them>[assist these women], remembering that they toiled by my side in spreading the good news<; and so, too, did>[along with] Clement and my other fellow workers, whose names are ‘in the book of life.’
4 <All joy be yours at all times> [Rejoice] in your union with the Lord [always], [and] again I <repeat —All joy be yours>[say — Rejoice!].
5 Let your <forbearing spirit>[gentleness] be plain to everyone. The Lord is near.
6 Do not be anxious about anything; but under all circumstances, by prayer and <entreaty>[petition] joined with thanksgiving, make your needs known to God.
7 Then the peace of God, which is beyond all human understanding, will stand guard over your hearts and thoughts, <through>[in] your union with Christ Jesus.
1. v4 following the hymn a little closer was too tempting to not suggest. ;) I do think “All joy be yours” could be clearer, even if we don’t go with rejoice. Wright argues this means “celebrate” as opposed to just “be happy.”
<8 In conclusion, friends, whenever you find things that are true or honorable, righteous or pure, lovable or praiseworthy, or if ‘virtue’ and ‘honor’ have any meaning, let them fill your thoughts. 9 All that you learned and received and heard and saw in me put into practice continually; and then God, the giver of peace, will be with you.>
[8 Now then, friends, all that is true, all that is honorable, all that is righteous, all that is pure, all that is lovely, all that is admirable, if anything is virtuous and worthy of praise, focus your thoughts on these things.
9 Continue to practice all that you learned and received and heard and saw in me, and God, the giver of peace, will be with you.]
10 It was a matter of great joy to me, as one in union with the Lord, that <at length your interest in me had revived. The interest indeed you had, but not the opportunity.> [your concern for me has blossomed once again. (I know of course you were concerned before, but had no opportunity to help.)]
11 Do not think that I am saying this under the pressure of want. For I, however I am placed, have learned to be independent of circumstances.
12 I know how to face humble circumstances, and I know how to face prosperity. Into all and every human experience I have been initiated — into plenty and hunger, into prosperity and want.
13 I can do everything in the strength of him who makes me strong! 14 Yet you have acted nobly in sharing my troubles.
15 And you at Philippi know, as well as I, that in the early days of the good news — <at the time> when I had just left Macedonia — no church, with the one exception of yourselves, had anything to do with me as far as giving and receiving are concerned.
16 Indeed, even while I was still in Thessalonica, you sent [me help] more than once to <relieve my wants>[take care of my needs].
17 It is not that I am anxious for your gifts, but I am anxious to see the abundant return that will be placed to your account. I have enough of everything, and [some] to spare.
18 My <wants>[needs] are fully satisfied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts which you sent me — the sweet fragrance of a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.
19 And my God [will fully satisfy your every need], out of the greatness of his [glorious] wealth, <will, in glory, fully satisfy your every need,> through your union with Christ Jesus.
20 To him, our God and Father, be ascribed all glory for every and ever. Amen.
21 Give my greeting to everyone of the people of Christ Jesus. The Lord's followers who are with me send you<r> their greetings.
22 All Christ's people here, and especially those who belong to the Emperor's household, send theirs [as well].
Still go back and forth whether I prefer “saints” over “God’s/Christ’s people”
23 May the <blessing>[grace] of the Lord Jesus Christ <rest on your souls>[be with your spirit].
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Re: Philippians

Coburn
I can't decipher which is your final draft and which is the original. Could you format it so that it's less confusing?

I am so pleased to be associated with a translation that is not focused on translating literally or translating liberally, but on translating intelligently. One that is not merely easy, but pleasant to read.

I want to flag a couple of minor concerns. In verse 13, which is dear to my heart and therefore often present in my mind, you say, I can do everything in the strength of him who makes me strong. Based on my experience as a professional interpreter, what I see you doing there is augmenting, magnifying, or amplifying certain (implied, nonverbal) aspects of the discourse in order to explicitly bring out the connotation you see as essential. That is "massaging" or "spinning" the text. I would suggest that unless you do this carefully, you are limiting the reader's understanding of the phrase.

I always try to make my translation practical. What is my experience of this truth? I'm not trying to make reality conform to the words. I'm trying to find where the words are already at work in reality. I'm insisting on a confirmation.

In this case, how does he strengthen us? Isn't it most often through giving us courage? And not even unconsciously. He often does so through education and persuasion. It is moral courage through moral support. That is one possible scenario, one definite confirmation. I'm suggesting that we not err in the direction of suggesting the reader always be focused on miraculous impartations of strength, and miss the main blessing.

I'd be tempted to translate 4.13 as, I can face all things through him who encourages me to be strong. You can probably do better.

On the issue of "saints" versus "God's people," I've been cogitating on that, too. I pray that you guys find a good answer. One that takes into account the OT paradigm of the qadeshah, the Temple prostitute, as a model for our commitment and devotion to the Lord. It's a theological question that involves issues like election, irrevocable surrender, and perseverance. But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.

You guys are great! Have a good week.

Thanks,

Coby

2015-02-28 12:46 GMT-08:00 Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]>:
Apologies, I just realized I hadn't ever finished this.
4 So then, my dear friends, whom I am longing to see — you who are my joy and my crown, stand fast in union with the Lord, dear friends. 2 I <entreat>[urge] Euodia, and I <entreat>[urge] Syntyche, to live in harmony, in union with the Lord; 3 yes, and I ask you, my true comrade, to <help them>[assist these women], remembering that they toiled by my side in spreading the good news<; and so, too, did>[along with] Clement and my other fellow workers, whose names are ‘in the book of life.’ 4 <All joy be yours at all times> [Rejoice] in your union with the Lord [always], [and] again I <repeat —All joy be yours>[say — Rejoice!]. 5 Let your <forbearing spirit>[gentleness] be plain to everyone. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything; but under all circumstances, by prayer and <entreaty>[petition] joined with thanksgiving, make your needs known to God. 7 Then the peace of God, which is beyond all human understanding, will stand guard over your hearts and thoughts, <through>[in] your union with Christ Jesus.
1. v4 following the hymn a little closer was too tempting to not suggest. ;) I do think “All joy be yours” could be clearer, even if we don’t go with rejoice. Wright argues this means “celebrate” as opposed to just “be happy.”
<8 In conclusion, friends, whenever you find things that are true or honorable, righteous or pure, lovable or praiseworthy, or if ‘virtue’ and ‘honor’ have any meaning, let them fill your thoughts. 9 All that you learned and received and heard and saw in me put into practice continually; and then God, the giver of peace, will be with you.>
[8 Now then, friends, all that is true, all that is honorable, all that is righteous, all that is pure, all that is lovely, all that is admirable, if anything is virtuous and worthy of praise, focus your thoughts on these things. 9 Continue to practice all that you learned and received and heard and saw in me, and God, the giver of peace, will be with you.]
10 It was a matter of great joy to me, as one in union with the Lord, that <at length your interest in me had revived. The interest indeed you had, but not the opportunity.> [your concern for me has blossomed once again. (I know of course you were concerned before, but had no opportunity to help.)] 11 Do not think that I am saying this under the pressure of want. For I, however I am placed, have learned to be independent of circumstances. 12 I know how to face humble circumstances, and I know how to face prosperity. Into all and every human experience I have been initiated — into plenty and hunger, into prosperity and want. 13 I can do everything in the strength of him who makes me strong! 14 Yet you have acted nobly in sharing my troubles.
15 And you at Philippi know, as well as I, that in the early days of the good news — <at the time> when I had just left Macedonia — no church, with the one exception of yourselves, had anything to do with me as far as giving and receiving are concerned. 16 Indeed, even while I was still in Thessalonica, you sent [me help] more than once to <relieve my wants>[take care of my needs].
17 It is not that I am anxious for your gifts, but I am anxious to see the abundant return that will be placed to your account. I have enough of everything, and [some] to spare. 18 My <wants>[needs] are fully satisfied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts which you sent me — the sweet fragrance of a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And my God [will fully satisfy your every need], out of the greatness of his [glorious] wealth, <will, in glory, fully satisfy your every need,> through your union with Christ Jesus. 20 To him, our God and Father, be ascribed all glory for every and ever. Amen.
21 Give my greeting to everyone of the people of Christ Jesus. The Lord's followers who are with me send you<r> their greetings. 22 All Christ's people here, and especially those who belong to the Emperor's household, send theirs [as well].
Still go back and forth whether I prefer “saints” over “God’s/Christ’s people”
23 May the <blessing>[grace] of the Lord Jesus Christ <rest on your souls>[be with your spirit].



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Re: Philippians

Coburn
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Sorry, Freudian slip. Not the Temple prostitute. Small t. Pagan shrine prostitute.

2015-03-01 9:28 GMT-08:00 Coby Ingram <[hidden email]>:
I can't decipher which is your final draft and which is the original. Could you format it so that it's less confusing?

I am so pleased to be associated with a translation that is not focused on translating literally or translating liberally, but on translating intelligently. One that is not merely easy, but pleasant to read.

I want to flag a couple of minor concerns. In verse 13, which is dear to my heart and therefore often present in my mind, you say, I can do everything in the strength of him who makes me strong. Based on my experience as a professional interpreter, what I see you doing there is augmenting, magnifying, or amplifying certain (implied, nonverbal) aspects of the discourse in order to explicitly bring out the connotation you see as essential. That is "massaging" or "spinning" the text. I would suggest that unless you do this carefully, you are limiting the reader's understanding of the phrase.

I always try to make my translation practical. What is my experience of this truth? I'm not trying to make reality conform to the words. I'm trying to find where the words are already at work in reality. I'm insisting on a confirmation.

In this case, how does he strengthen us? Isn't it most often through giving us courage? And not even unconsciously. He often does so through education and persuasion. It is moral courage through moral support. That is one possible scenario, one definite confirmation. I'm suggesting that we not err in the direction of suggesting the reader always be focused on miraculous impartations of strength, and miss the main blessing.

I'd be tempted to translate 4.13 as, I can face all things through him who encourages me to be strong. You can probably do better.

On the issue of "saints" versus "God's people," I've been cogitating on that, too. I pray that you guys find a good answer. One that takes into account the OT paradigm of the qadeshah, the Temple prostitute, as a model for our commitment and devotion to the Lord. It's a theological question that involves issues like election, irrevocable surrender, and perseverance. But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.

You guys are great! Have a good week.

Thanks,

Coby

2015-02-28 12:46 GMT-08:00 Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]>:

Apologies, I just realized I hadn't ever finished this.
4 So then, my dear friends, whom I am longing to see — you who are my joy and my crown, stand fast in union with the Lord, dear friends. 2 I <entreat>[urge] Euodia, and I <entreat>[urge] Syntyche, to live in harmony, in union with the Lord; 3 yes, and I ask you, my true comrade, to <help them>[assist these women], remembering that they toiled by my side in spreading the good news<; and so, too, did>[along with] Clement and my other fellow workers, whose names are ‘in the book of life.’ 4 <All joy be yours at all times> [Rejoice] in your union with the Lord [always], [and] again I <repeat —All joy be yours>[say — Rejoice!]. 5 Let your <forbearing spirit>[gentleness] be plain to everyone. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything; but under all circumstances, by prayer and <entreaty>[petition] joined with thanksgiving, make your needs known to God. 7 Then the peace of God, which is beyond all human understanding, will stand guard over your hearts and thoughts, <through>[in] your union with Christ Jesus.
1. v4 following the hymn a little closer was too tempting to not suggest. ;) I do think “All joy be yours” could be clearer, even if we don’t go with rejoice. Wright argues this means “celebrate” as opposed to just “be happy.”
<8 In conclusion, friends, whenever you find things that are true or honorable, righteous or pure, lovable or praiseworthy, or if ‘virtue’ and ‘honor’ have any meaning, let them fill your thoughts. 9 All that you learned and received and heard and saw in me put into practice continually; and then God, the giver of peace, will be with you.>
[8 Now then, friends, all that is true, all that is honorable, all that is righteous, all that is pure, all that is lovely, all that is admirable, if anything is virtuous and worthy of praise, focus your thoughts on these things. 9 Continue to practice all that you learned and received and heard and saw in me, and God, the giver of peace, will be with you.]
10 It was a matter of great joy to me, as one in union with the Lord, that <at length your interest in me had revived. The interest indeed you had, but not the opportunity.> [your concern for me has blossomed once again. (I know of course you were concerned before, but had no opportunity to help.)] 11 Do not think that I am saying this under the pressure of want. For I, however I am placed, have learned to be independent of circumstances. 12 I know how to face humble circumstances, and I know how to face prosperity. Into all and every human experience I have been initiated — into plenty and hunger, into prosperity and want. 13 I can do everything in the strength of him who makes me strong! 14 Yet you have acted nobly in sharing my troubles.
15 And you at Philippi know, as well as I, that in the early days of the good news — <at the time> when I had just left Macedonia — no church, with the one exception of yourselves, had anything to do with me as far as giving and receiving are concerned. 16 Indeed, even while I was still in Thessalonica, you sent [me help] more than once to <relieve my wants>[take care of my needs].
17 It is not that I am anxious for your gifts, but I am anxious to see the abundant return that will be placed to your account. I have enough of everything, and [some] to spare. 18 My <wants>[needs] are fully satisfied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts which you sent me — the sweet fragrance of a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And my God [will fully satisfy your every need], out of the greatness of his [glorious] wealth, <will, in glory, fully satisfy your every need,> through your union with Christ Jesus. 20 To him, our God and Father, be ascribed all glory for every and ever. Amen.
21 Give my greeting to everyone of the people of Christ Jesus. The Lord's followers who are with me send you<r> their greetings. 22 All Christ's people here, and especially those who belong to the Emperor's household, send theirs [as well].
Still go back and forth whether I prefer “saints” over “God’s/Christ’s people”
23 May the <blessing>[grace] of the Lord Jesus Christ <rest on your souls>[be with your spirit].



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Re: Philippians

Brian J. Henry
In reply to this post by Coburn
Coburn wrote
I can't decipher which is your final draft and which is the original. Could you format it so that it's less confusing?
Sorry. <> is recommend to delete, [] is recommend to add. Someone else suggested it a long time ago, I just stuck with it. Any ideas on how to make it clearer would be appreciated.


Coburn wrote
I'd be tempted to translate 4.13 as, *I can face all things through him who encourages me to be strong.* You can probably do better.
I like that.

Coburn wrote
But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.
Ehh. The same could be said for lots of church vocabulary, but as the FAQ says we are "aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity."
So on one hand, I see the argument for making it clearer, but on the other, especially as one who is in a church that regularly uses saint-ly vocabulary, using "saints" where it's historically always been used in english translations points us to where we got the word and how the NT authors used it, and it only takes a brief look at google or a study bible to find out what "saints" means if one is not familiar with it. Even the ESV, which is aimed at a fairly evangelical audience, keeps it.
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Re: Philippians

Coburn
We were talking last night after dinner about 2 Cor 12.8-10, Strength comes to perfection in the midst of weakness. I am letting this dictum grow on me: "Let the Bible be as ambiguous as it wants to." So my suggestion encourages me to be strong is probably a  little bit too much gloss in the margin. Plus I didn't even refer to the Greek! :P

By comparing the two passages, it seems like Paul is saying I can face it all in the one who strengthens me. Translating ἐν as "in" rather than "through" seems to unlock his thought for me (Gal 2.20). I'll leave off commenting with that.

Onward!

Coby

2015-03-02 7:24 GMT-08:00 Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]>:
Coburn wrote
I can't decipher which is your final draft and which is the original. Could you format it so that it's less confusing?
Sorry. <> is recommend to delete, [] is recommend to add. Someone else suggested it a long time ago, I just stuck with it. Any ideas on how to make it clearer would be appreciated.


Coburn wrote
I'd be tempted to translate 4.13 as, *I can face all things through him who encourages me to be strong.* You can probably do better.
I like that.

Coburn wrote
But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.
Ehh. The same could be said for lots of church vocabulary, but as the FAQ says we are "aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity."
So on one hand, I see the argument for making it clearer, but on the other, especially as one who is in a church that regularly uses saint-ly vocabulary, using "saints" where it's historically always been used in english translations points us to where we got the word and how the NT authors used it, and it only takes a brief look at google or a study bible to find out what "saints" means if one is not familiar with it. Even the ESV, which is aimed at a fairly evangelical audience, keeps it.


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Re: Philippians

russellallen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Brian J. Henry

On 3 Mar 2015, at 2:24 am, Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Coburn wrote
But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.
Ehh. The same could be said for lots of church vocabulary, but as the FAQ says we are "aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity."
So on one hand, I see the argument for making it clearer, but on the other, especially as one who is in a church that regularly uses saint-ly vocabulary, using "saints" where it's historically always been used in english translations points us to where we got the word and how the NT authors used it, and it only takes a brief look at google or a study bible to find out what "saints" means if one is not familiar with it. Even the ESV, which is aimed at a fairly evangelical audience, keeps it.

I’m aware of I guess three generally used meanings of ‘saint’: the general and most widely used meaning of ‘very good person’, the official Roman Catholic position, and the other view that uses ’saint’ synonymously with ‘Christian’.

I guess my concern would be that if we use the word ‘saints’ in this context that anyone who isn’t aware that Paul is using the word in the third sense above will be given the mistaken impression that he isn’t greeting all the Christians, but from a subset of specially holy people.

The UBS Translation Handbook recommends God’s People: “The word “saint” is not a description of the moral character of Christians; it refers rather to the fact that they belong to God. It is therefore usually best to render it as God’s people

A roundup of Phil 4:21 gives us the general range:

REB Give my greetings, in the fellowship of Christ Jesus, to each one of God’s people. My colleagues send their greetings to you, 


NET Give greetings to all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers with me here send greetings. 


TEV Greetings to each one of God’s people who belong to Christ Jesus. The believers here with me send you their greetings. 


CEV Give my greetings to all who are God’s people because of Christ Jesus.
The Lord’s followers here with me send you their greetings. 


NRSV Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The friends who are with me greet you. 


KJVS Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. 


GWORD Greet everyone who believes in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings to you. 


HCSB Greet every •saint in Christ Jesus. Those brothers who are with me greet you. 


NLT-SE Give my greetings to each of God’s holy people—all who belong to Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


CEB Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters with me send you their greeting. 


NJB My greetings to every one of God’s holy people in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


TNIV Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings. 


:) Russell






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Re: Philippians

Coburn
I confess that my approach is from forming the idea in my college years (at a private Presbyterian liberal arts school) that every time we use a religious word like "baptism," "holy," "sin," "glory," or "righteousness," we are in a sense taking a black-box approach. The word means whatever your reigning system of doctrine says it does. And I was sensitive to the idea current in the eighties that Christians live in a ghetto of their own making, defined by language and other social cues. This, I felt, was disobedience to the Great Commission rather than obedience to it. Since then, I have tried to find secular equivalents for these "holy words," these encapsulators of ideology, especially since post-Christian culture has identified each and every one of these words as philosophical allergens, and developed both immunities and adverse reactions to them. I am aware that this is an unrealistic prejudice of mine, but I find it somewhat useful still.

I see that many translations have tried to do the same, changing "saints" to "(God's) holy people," etc. But I remain unsatisfied. I agree with you guys that sticking with a commonly understood word like "saint" is often the lesser of all available evils, especially when there is not one word or short expression that communicates the same idea better. But I remain hopeful. In the case of "saints" I have toyed with the idea of "company of the committed," "converts, (I see that Locke chose that option in his "Paraphrase")" and "devotees." None of them is better than "saint," which, despite some inappropriate connotations, does have a clear paper trail and may be properly understood by most people. Maybe some day we will come up with better ways to say these things. On the issue in general, I agree with the OEB translation philosophy that, unless a real need exists for change, following commonly accepted Church tradition is preferred. Still, I remain open to correction, because as Jesus often demonstrated, religious tradition is a dangerous thing.

Thanks for listening as I think out loud,

Coby

2015-03-03 2:08 GMT-08:00 russellallen [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]>:

On 3 Mar 2015, at 2:24 am, Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Coburn wrote
But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.
Ehh. The same could be said for lots of church vocabulary, but as the FAQ says we are "aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity."
So on one hand, I see the argument for making it clearer, but on the other, especially as one who is in a church that regularly uses saint-ly vocabulary, using "saints" where it's historically always been used in english translations points us to where we got the word and how the NT authors used it, and it only takes a brief look at google or a study bible to find out what "saints" means if one is not familiar with it. Even the ESV, which is aimed at a fairly evangelical audience, keeps it.

I’m aware of I guess three generally used meanings of ‘saint’: the general and most widely used meaning of ‘very good person’, the official Roman Catholic position, and the other view that uses ’saint’ synonymously with ‘Christian’.

I guess my concern would be that if we use the word ‘saints’ in this context that anyone who isn’t aware that Paul is using the word in the third sense above will be given the mistaken impression that he isn’t greeting all the Christians, but from a subset of specially holy people.

The UBS Translation Handbook recommends God’s People: “The word “saint” is not a description of the moral character of Christians; it refers rather to the fact that they belong to God. It is therefore usually best to render it as God’s people

A roundup of Phil 4:21 gives us the general range:

REB Give my greetings, in the fellowship of Christ Jesus, to each one of God’s people. My colleagues send their greetings to you, 


NET Give greetings to all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers with me here send greetings. 


TEV Greetings to each one of God’s people who belong to Christ Jesus. The believers here with me send you their greetings. 


CEV Give my greetings to all who are God’s people because of Christ Jesus.
The Lord’s followers here with me send you their greetings. 


NRSV Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The friends who are with me greet you. 


KJVS Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. 


GWORD Greet everyone who believes in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings to you. 


HCSB Greet every •saint in Christ Jesus. Those brothers who are with me greet you. 


NLT-SE Give my greetings to each of God’s holy people—all who belong to Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


CEB Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters with me send you their greeting. 


NJB My greetings to every one of God’s holy people in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


TNIV Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings. 


:) Russell






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Re: Philippians

russellallen
Administrator
Thank you for your thoughts! 

At the moment we don’t use the word ‘saints’ in the main build. On the other hand, we do use ‘Christ’, ‘baptism’, ’son of man'. I don’t think there is necessarily a clear line for any of these - we could use ‘Annointed One’, immersing’, ‘Human One’ for example. Other translations have.

At the moment I’m happy with us continuing not to use ‘saints’ - but on the other hand I am aware as you are and as Brian is of what we give up by doing so. There is value in historical continuity and we should sacrifice that value with eyes open to what we lose and what we gain.

One way forward is to start leveraging the translational metadata we already have - the variations included within our usfm files. I’ve long wanted to be able to have an espiscopal version for example, which used the words ‘bishop’ where Roman Catholics and Anglicans would expect them. That isn’t my personal tradition, but it would be useful to many people. It is easy to mark this, and to mark the traditional use of ‘saints’ in the usfm. What is needed on top of that is a web interface which allows people to view the OEB with the various alternatives (eg show me a version with bishops using UK spelling)

I think I can do this, after all it is “just” a matter of software :) 

Anyone on the list good at either python or javascript?

Russell 

On 4 Mar 2015, at 3:39 am, Coburn [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I confess that my approach is from forming the idea in my college years (at a private Presbyterian liberal arts school) that every time we use a religious word like "baptism," "holy," "sin," "glory," or "righteousness," we are in a sense taking a black-box approach. The word means whatever your reigning system of doctrine says it does. And I was sensitive to the idea current in the eighties that Christians live in a ghetto of their own making, defined by language and other social cues. This, I felt, was disobedience to the Great Commission rather than obedience to it. Since then, I have tried to find secular equivalents for these "holy words," these encapsulators of ideology, especially since post-Christian culture has identified each and every one of these words as philosophical allergens, and developed both immunities and adverse reactions to them. I am aware that this is an unrealistic prejudice of mine, but I find it somewhat useful still.

I see that many translations have tried to do the same, changing "saints" to "(God's) holy people," etc. But I remain unsatisfied. I agree with you guys that sticking with a commonly understood word like "saint" is often the lesser of all available evils, especially when there is not one word or short expression that communicates the same idea better. But I remain hopeful. In the case of "saints" I have toyed with the idea of "company of the committed," "converts, (I see that Locke chose that option in his "Paraphrase")" and "devotees." None of them is better than "saint," which, despite some inappropriate connotations, does have a clear paper trail and may be properly understood by most people. Maybe some day we will come up with better ways to say these things. On the issue in general, I agree with the OEB translation philosophy that, unless a real need exists for change, following commonly accepted Church tradition is preferred. Still, I remain open to correction, because as Jesus often demonstrated, religious tradition is a dangerous thing.

Thanks for listening as I think out loud,

Coby

2015-03-03 2:08 GMT-08:00 russellallen [via Open English Bible] <<a href="x-msg://2/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=446&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external" class="">[hidden email]>:

On 3 Mar 2015, at 2:24 am, Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Coburn wrote
But "saints" is an archaic and loaded word. We would do our readers a service to find a better one.
Ehh. The same could be said for lots of church vocabulary, but as the FAQ says we are "aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity."
So on one hand, I see the argument for making it clearer, but on the other, especially as one who is in a church that regularly uses saint-ly vocabulary, using "saints" where it's historically always been used in english translations points us to where we got the word and how the NT authors used it, and it only takes a brief look at google or a study bible to find out what "saints" means if one is not familiar with it. Even the ESV, which is aimed at a fairly evangelical audience, keeps it.

I’m aware of I guess three generally used meanings of ‘saint’: the general and most widely used meaning of ‘very good person’, the official Roman Catholic position, and the other view that uses ’saint’ synonymously with ‘Christian’.

I guess my concern would be that if we use the word ‘saints’ in this context that anyone who isn’t aware that Paul is using the word in the third sense above will be given the mistaken impression that he isn’t greeting all the Christians, but from a subset of specially holy people.

The UBS Translation Handbook recommends God’s People: “The word “saint” is not a description of the moral character of Christians; it refers rather to the fact that they belong to God. It is therefore usually best to render it as God’s people

A roundup of Phil 4:21 gives us the general range:

REB Give my greetings, in the fellowship of Christ Jesus, to each one of God’s people. My colleagues send their greetings to you, 


NET Give greetings to all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers with me here send greetings. 


TEV Greetings to each one of God’s people who belong to Christ Jesus. The believers here with me send you their greetings. 


CEV Give my greetings to all who are God’s people because of Christ Jesus.
The Lord’s followers here with me send you their greetings. 


NRSV Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The friends who are with me greet you. 


KJVS Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. 


GWORD Greet everyone who believes in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings to you. 


HCSB Greet every •saint in Christ Jesus. Those brothers who are with me greet you. 


NLT-SE Give my greetings to each of God’s holy people—all who belong to Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


CEB Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters with me send you their greeting. 


NJB My greetings to every one of God’s holy people in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send you their greetings. 


TNIV Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings. 


:) Russell






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Re: Philippians

Brian J. Henry
At the moment we don’t use the word ‘saints’ in the main build. On the other hand, we do use ‘Christ’, ‘baptism’, ’son of man'. I don’t think there is necessarily a clear line for any of these - we could use ‘Annointed One’, immersing’, ‘Human One’ for example. Other translations have.

At the moment I’m happy with us continuing not to use ‘saints’ - but on the other hand I am aware as you are and as Brian is of what we give up by doing so. There is value in historical continuity and we should sacrifice that value with eyes open to what we lose and what we gain.

One way forward is to start leveraging the translational metadata we already have - the variations included within our usfm files. I’ve long wanted to be able to have an espiscopal version for example, which used the words ‘bishop’ where Roman Catholics and Anglicans would expect them. That isn’t my personal tradition, but it would be useful to many people. It is easy to mark this, and to mark the traditional use of ‘saints’ in the usfm. What is needed on top of that is a web interface which allows people to view the OEB with the various alternatives (eg show me a version with bishops using UK spelling)
Sounds good. :)
On a somewhat related note that might deserve its own thread...how *do* we feel about Son of Man vs Human One? Because that is one I have recently started to feel is easily and often misunderstood, or just flat out ignored. I didn't like the term "Human One" at all when I first heard it, but it really has grown on me a lot.
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Re: Philippians

Coburn
This post was updated on .
One trick I've learned doing translation jobs is to use Google to check the
frequency of a translation choice. For example, if I want to translate get
off track
 into Spanish, and I'm not sure whether to use despistado or
confundido, I can search the two terms together.

get off track + despistado: 5 results.

get off track + confundido: 14,400 results.

So....

On the term Son of Man, I think you're going to find that has become a
commonly used and understood expression. Heck, it's even one of the songs
in Disney's Tarzan movie. Remember that it translates ben-Adam in
Hebrew, a short three-syllable compound that basically means "Child of Adam." In
Proverbs, I'm finding that the use of 'adam for "man" is much rarer than
the word 'iysh or nefesh. It has the connotation of "created being,
mortal" because 'adamah means "dirt." All elementary, of course, but the
Google analogy is what I'm getting at. I suggest translating it son of
Man
, with "son" uncapitalized and "Man" capitalized.

Thereupon the herb-master entered. 'Your lordship asked for
kingsfoil, as the rustics name it,' he said; or athelas in the noble
tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean....'

'I do so,' said Aragorn, 'and I care not whether you say now asëa aranion
or kingsfoil, so long as you have some.'

(The herb-master launches in to a long excuse...)

'Then in the name of the king, go and find some man of less lore and more
wisdom who keeps some in his house!' cried Gandalf.
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Re: Philippians

Brian J. Henry
On the term "Son of Man," I think you're going to find that has become a commonly used and understood expression. Heck, it's even one of the songs in Disney's Tarzan movie. Remember that it translates ben-Adam in Hebrew, a three-syllable compound that basically means "Child of Adam." In Proverbs, I'm finding that the use of 'adam for "man" is much rarer than the word 'iysh or nefesh. It has the connotation of "created being, mortal" because 'adamah means "dirt." All elementary, of course, but the Google analogy is what I'm getting at. I suggest translating it "son of Man," with "son" uncapitalized and "Man" capitalized.
Ah yes, and that's why whenever I hear the phrase I think of a very Tarzan-looking Jesus (or perhaps the other way around?) ;)

I've asked a few people who are just general lay people though and they stumbled over what is trying to be said - some even say it's a reference to his divinity. (I'm not sure how they got there, but I've heard it.)
The phrase is lifted from Daniel 7, where the "one like a son of man" is a symbol of true humanity in contrast to the beasts that are currently ruling (which are analogous to the then current kings).
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