Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
8 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

russellallen
Administrator
Hi all,

There is a backlog of NT fixes which people have provided me - I’m working through that and the delay is my fault (too much going on!).

Can I suggest that while I work through those that we get moving on getting runs on the board for the OT?

For Psalms we used as a base a translation by John Edgar McFadyen which worked well I think. We should also use as a base his translations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and the smaller wisdom books (Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations and Song of Songs). So far I have got Isaiah into usfm, with Jeremiah just about to come and the others a couple of weeks off. 

What we need is to get those into a fit state to share - that is, generally accurate with improvements to tone etc still to be done. There will be typos, and also strangeness caused by McFadyen dipping into the LXX when he felt it made more sense. 

I’ve put up a MS word version of Isaiah at: http://openenglishbible.org/oeb/dev/OEB-Isaiah-Dev-20150414-US.docx 

Can I suggest that people pick a chapter at random, then go through and note where there are material differences between McFadyen and the NRSV and/or egregious anarchronistic language (eg ‘thee’s or ‘thou’s)? You don’t need to agonise how to fix the issue, just to note that it exists. We can then go back and work out our approach t the fixes.

What to you think? That way we can hopefully get something worth sharing as a base for a closer revision.

Cheers, Russell 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

Pleonic
Sorry I haven't been here translating in quite a while. I'll jump into Isa 40 (a personal favorite). I must say I like the musicality of McFadyen's rendering.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

Brian J. Henry
In reply to this post by russellallen
Isaiah 29
Woe to thee, Ariel, Ariel,
        city where David encamped.
Let one or two years pass by,
        a cycle of festivals more,
2 and distress I will bring upon Ariel,
        moaning and lamentation,
and you shalt be Ariel indeed.
3 I will camp, like David, against thee,
and circle there round with entrenchments,
        and set up forts against thee.
4 And low from the ground shalt you speak,
        and your words from the dust shall rise humbly
with voice like a ghost's from the ground,
        yea, with twittering speech from the dust.

5 But the horde pf your foes shall become like fine dust,
        and the horde of the tyrants like flitting chaff. [flitting isn't exactly a common word, especially when not applied to flying animals.]
Then swiftly and suddenly you
6 from the  Lord of Hosts shalt be visited
 [spacing, grammar]
with thunder and with earthquake,
        and with din stupendous,
with whirlwind and with tempest,
        and flame or devouring fire. [is this perhaps supposed to be "flames of" ?]
7 But the horde of all the nations
        In battle array against Ariel, [wrong capitalization, and battle array could be clearer]
with all their entrenchments and forts
        and all the hosts that distress her,
        shall be as a dream, as a vision of night.
8 Like a man that is hungry, who dreams that he eateth
        and waketh to find his desire unappeased;
like a man that is thirsty, who dreams that he drinketh,
        and waketh all faint, with his thirst unquenched:
even so shall it be with the horde of all nations
        that fight against Mount Zion.

9 Utterly dazed shall you be,
        yea, utterly blind shall you be,
and drunken, though not with wine,
        yea, reeling, though not with strong drink.
10 For the  Lord has poured upon you [extra spaces before Lord]
        a spirit of slummer deep; [slumber?]
your eyes he has firmly sealed,  [this is missing "prophets"]
        and your heads he has muffled so close  [this is missing "seers", and also is unclear. NRSV: "covered your heads, you seers"]
11 that the sight of all this is to you
        as the words of a book that is sealed. [Were books ever actually sealed? NRSV goes with document, some others stick with scroll]
12 If put into the hands of a scholar with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, it is sealed.” If, however, it be put into the hands of a man who is no scholar, with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, I am no scholar.” [Is "scholar" correct? NRSV and others go with "those who can read/who cannot read"]

13 And the Lord said:
because this people draw nigh with their mouth, 
honouring me with their lips,
        while their hearts are far away ---
their religion only a mockery,
        formulate learned by rote ---
14 I will deal with them therefore once more
        In a fashion so wondrous strange [capitalization]
that their wise men's wisdom shall perish,
        their prudent men's prudence shall vanish.

15 Woe unto them that conceal
        from the  Lord their deep designs, [spacing before "Lord"]
doing their deeds in the dark,
        unseen, unperceived --- so they fancy!
16 O perverse that you are!
        Is the potter no more than the clay?
shall the thing that is made maintain
        that it has not been made by its maker?
Shall the thing that is fashioned deny
        that the potter has understanding?
17 Assuredly but a while ---
        a very little while ---
and into a garden-land
 [What even]
        shall Lebanon be transformed,
and the garden-land shall be counted
        a veritable forest.
18 In that day even the deaf
        shall hear the words of the Book, [capitalization]
and out of the gloom and darkness
        the eyes of the blind shall see.
19 And then shall the humble win
        a new joy in the  Lord , [extra spaces here]
and the poorest shall exult
        In the Holy One of Israel. [capitalization]
20 For then shall the tyrant have vanished,
        and then shall the scoffer have ceased;
 [grammar...I think? these sound off but I can't put my finger on exactly why at the moment.]
and those that were zealous in sin
        shall all have been rooted out,
21 with those that have falsely condemned,
        and sought to entrap the judge,
        and quibbed to injure the innocent.

22 Thus therefore says the  Lord , [spaces]
        the God of the household of Jacob,
        who Abraham did redeem: [this makes it sound like Abraham redeemed God]
nevermore shall Jacob be shamed,
        nor ever again grow pale.  [unclear euphemism for embarrassment]
23 For the moment he beholdeth  [NRSV and others have a reference to "his children" here too]
        what my hands have wrought in his midst,
        they shall count my name as holy;
the Holy One of Jacob
        they then shall count as holy,
        and in awe hold the God of Israel.
24 Those that had erred in spirit
        shall then win understanding;
and those that had been murmurers
        shall willingly learn the Truth. [capitalization]
 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

russellallen
Administrator
Cool.
Many of these we can fix in one go - thee, shalt, yea, anything ending in -eth
The various poetic reversings we will have to fix one by one as well as the various and sundry typos.
Russell


On 18 Jun 2015, at 5:12 am, Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Isaiah 29
Woe to thee, Ariel, Ariel,
        city where David encamped.
Let one or two years pass by,
        a cycle of festivals more,
2 and distress I will bring upon Ariel,
        moaning and lamentation,
and you shalt be Ariel indeed.
3 I will camp, like David, against thee,
and circle there round with entrenchments,
        and set up forts against thee.
4 And low from the ground shalt you speak,
        and your words from the dust shall rise humbly
with voice like a ghost's from the ground,
        yea, with twittering speech from the dust.

5 But the horde pf your foes shall become like fine dust,
        and the horde of the tyrants like flitting chaff. [flitting isn't exactly a common word, especially when not applied to flying animals.]
Then swiftly and suddenly you
6 from the  Lord of Hosts shalt be visited
 [spacing, grammar]
with thunder and with earthquake,
        and with din stupendous,
with whirlwind and with tempest,
        and flame or devouring fire. [is this perhaps supposed to be "flames of" ?]
7 But the horde of all the nations
        In battle array against Ariel, [wrong capitalization, and battle array could be clearer]
with all their entrenchments and forts
        and all the hosts that distress her,
        shall be as a dream, as a vision of night.
8 Like a man that is hungry, who dreams that he eateth
        and waketh to find his desire unappeased;
like a man that is thirsty, who dreams that he drinketh,
        and waketh all faint, with his thirst unquenched:
even so shall it be with the horde of all nations
        that fight against Mount Zion.

9 Utterly dazed shall you be,
        yea, utterly blind shall you be,
and drunken, though not with wine,
        yea, reeling, though not with strong drink.
10 For the  Lord has poured upon you [extra spaces before Lord]
        a spirit of slummer deep; [slumber?]
your eyes he has firmly sealed,  [this is missing "prophets"]
        and your heads he has muffled so close  [this is missing "seers", and also is unclear. NRSV: "covered your heads, you seers"]
11 that the sight of all this is to you
        as the words of a book that is sealed. [Were books ever actually sealed? NRSV goes with document, some others stick with scroll]
12 If put into the hands of a scholar with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, it is sealed.” If, however, it be put into the hands of a man who is no scholar, with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, I am no scholar.” [Is "scholar" correct? NRSV and others go with "those who can read/who cannot read"]

13 And the Lord said:
because this people draw nigh with their mouth, 
honouring me with their lips,
        while their hearts are far away ---
their religion only a mockery,
        formulate learned by rote ---
14 I will deal with them therefore once more
        In a fashion so wondrous strange [capitalization]
that their wise men's wisdom shall perish,
        their prudent men's prudence shall vanish.

15 Woe unto them that conceal
        from the  Lord their deep designs, [spacing before "Lord"]
doing their deeds in the dark,
        unseen, unperceived --- so they fancy!
16 O perverse that you are!
        Is the potter no more than the clay?
shall the thing that is made maintain
        that it has not been made by its maker?
Shall the thing that is fashioned deny
        that the potter has understanding?
17 Assuredly but a while ---
        a very little while ---
and into a garden-land
 [What even]
        shall Lebanon be transformed,
and the garden-land shall be counted
        a veritable forest.
18 In that day even the deaf
        shall hear the words of the Book, [capitalization]
and out of the gloom and darkness
        the eyes of the blind shall see.
19 And then shall the humble win
        a new joy in the  Lord , [extra spaces here]
and the poorest shall exult
        In the Holy One of Israel. [capitalization]
20 For then shall the tyrant have vanished,
        and then shall the scoffer have ceased;
 [grammar...I think? these sound off but I can't put my finger on exactly why at the moment.]
and those that were zealous in sin
        shall all have been rooted out,
21 with those that have falsely condemned,
        and sought to entrap the judge,
        and quibbed to injure the innocent.

22 Thus therefore says the  Lord , [spaces]
        the God of the household of Jacob,
        who Abraham did redeem: [this makes it sound like Abraham redeemed God]
nevermore shall Jacob be shamed,
        nor ever again grow pale.  [unclear euphemism for embarrassment]
23 For the moment he beholdeth  [NRSV and others have a reference to "his children" here too]
        what my hands have wrought in his midst,
        they shall count my name as holy;
the Holy One of Jacob
        they then shall count as holy,
        and in awe hold the God of Israel.
24 Those that had erred in spirit
        shall then win understanding;
and those that had been murmurers
        shall willingly learn the Truth. [capitalization]
 


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Pushing-on-into-the-OT-Isaiah-tp458p466.html
To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

russellallen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Brian J. Henry
I’ve uploaded a new version of Isaiah. I’ve tried to fix the bolded bits below and also did a lot of more automatic fixing of things like ‘thee’ and ‘thou’ in the rest of the document.



Russell

On 18 Jun 2015, at 5:12 am, Brian J. Henry [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Isaiah 29
Woe to thee, Ariel, Ariel,
        city where David encamped.
Let one or two years pass by,
        a cycle of festivals more,
2 and distress I will bring upon Ariel,
        moaning and lamentation,
and you shalt be Ariel indeed.
3 I will camp, like David, against thee,
and circle there round with entrenchments,
        and set up forts against thee.
4 And low from the ground shalt you speak,
        and your words from the dust shall rise humbly
with voice like a ghost's from the ground,
        yea, with twittering speech from the dust.

5 But the horde pf your foes shall become like fine dust,
        and the horde of the tyrants like flitting chaff. [flitting isn't exactly a common word, especially when not applied to flying animals.]
Then swiftly and suddenly you
6 from the  Lord of Hosts shalt be visited
 [spacing, grammar]
with thunder and with earthquake,
        and with din stupendous,
with whirlwind and with tempest,
        and flame or devouring fire. [is this perhaps supposed to be "flames of" ?]
7 But the horde of all the nations
        In battle array against Ariel, [wrong capitalization, and battle array could be clearer]
with all their entrenchments and forts
        and all the hosts that distress her,
        shall be as a dream, as a vision of night.
8 Like a man that is hungry, who dreams that he eateth
        and waketh to find his desire unappeased;
like a man that is thirsty, who dreams that he drinketh,
        and waketh all faint, with his thirst unquenched:
even so shall it be with the horde of all nations
        that fight against Mount Zion.

9 Utterly dazed shall you be,
        yea, utterly blind shall you be,
and drunken, though not with wine,
        yea, reeling, though not with strong drink.
10 For the  Lord has poured upon you [extra spaces before Lord]
        a spirit of slummer deep; [slumber?]
your eyes he has firmly sealed,  [this is missing "prophets"]
        and your heads he has muffled so close  [this is missing "seers", and also is unclear. NRSV: "covered your heads, you seers"]
11 that the sight of all this is to you
        as the words of a book that is sealed. [Were books ever actually sealed? NRSV goes with document, some others stick with scroll]
12 If put into the hands of a scholar with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, it is sealed.” If, however, it be put into the hands of a man who is no scholar, with the request that he read it, he will reply, ‟I cannot, I am no scholar.” [Is "scholar" correct? NRSV and others go with "those who can read/who cannot read"]

13 And the Lord said:
because this people draw nigh with their mouth, 
honouring me with their lips,
        while their hearts are far away ---
their religion only a mockery,
        formulate learned by rote ---
14 I will deal with them therefore once more
        In a fashion so wondrous strange [capitalization]
that their wise men's wisdom shall perish,
        their prudent men's prudence shall vanish.

15 Woe unto them that conceal
        from the  Lord their deep designs, [spacing before "Lord"]
doing their deeds in the dark,
        unseen, unperceived --- so they fancy!
16 O perverse that you are!
        Is the potter no more than the clay?
shall the thing that is made maintain
        that it has not been made by its maker?
Shall the thing that is fashioned deny
        that the potter has understanding?
17 Assuredly but a while ---
        a very little while ---
and into a garden-land
 [What even]
        shall Lebanon be transformed,
and the garden-land shall be counted
        a veritable forest.
18 In that day even the deaf
        shall hear the words of the Book, [capitalization]
and out of the gloom and darkness
        the eyes of the blind shall see.
19 And then shall the humble win
        a new joy in the  Lord , [extra spaces here]
and the poorest shall exult
        In the Holy One of Israel. [capitalization]
20 For then shall the tyrant have vanished,
        and then shall the scoffer have ceased;
 [grammar...I think? these sound off but I can't put my finger on exactly why at the moment.]
and those that were zealous in sin
        shall all have been rooted out,
21 with those that have falsely condemned,
        and sought to entrap the judge,
        and quibbed to injure the innocent.

22 Thus therefore says the  Lord , [spaces]
        the God of the household of Jacob,
        who Abraham did redeem: [this makes it sound like Abraham redeemed God]
nevermore shall Jacob be shamed,
        nor ever again grow pale.  [unclear euphemism for embarrassment]
23 For the moment he beholdeth  [NRSV and others have a reference to "his children" here too]
        what my hands have wrought in his midst,
        they shall count my name as holy;
the Holy One of Jacob
        they then shall count as holy,
        and in awe hold the God of Israel.
24 Those that had erred in spirit
        shall then win understanding;
and those that had been murmurers
        shall willingly learn the Truth. [capitalization]
 


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Pushing-on-into-the-OT-Isaiah-tp458p466.html
To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

Timchambers
Are there still tasks to do for Isaiah? And are we creating a UK and US English version for some spellings?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

russellallen
Administrator
Isaiah still needs a cleanup, alas.
The latest version is at http://openenglishbible.org/development/
The books in orange need checking.
I’m working on filling in the missing books at least until orange stage.
Russell

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 6:36 am, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Are there still tasks to do for Isaiah? And are we creating a UK and US English version for some spellings?
>
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
> http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Pushing-on-into-the-OT-Isaiah-tp458p494.html
> To start a new topic under Open English Bible, email [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from Open English Bible, click here.
> NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pushing on into the OT - Isaiah

Timchambers
Once i get done with 2nd Peter, I can help with Isaiah, or other orange OT books. Wherever the need feels greater.