Working Through the book of 1st Peter

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Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
So having gone through Jude, Titus, 1st John, 2nd John and 3rd John and 2nd Peter so far...would seem like 1st Peter is a good next letter. I like working on shorter letters, plus am on a roll with the non-Pauline letters, so think I'll keep that roll going.... I'll add my recommended edits to 1st Peter in this thread...
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
1st Peter 1:3-5 in the OEB currently reads:

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has, in his great mercy, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 given us the new life of undying hope, that promises an inheritance, imperishable, stainless, unfading, which has been reserved for you in heaven — 5 for you who, through faith, are being guarded by the power of God, awaiting a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last days.

Consider changing to this which is a little more natural and more accurate to the greek:

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy, he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance, imperishable, undefiled, unfading, kept in Heaven for you - 5 who through faith, are being guarded by the power of God, awaiting a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
1 Pet 1:6-7 currently read in the OEB:  

6 At the thought of this you are full of exultation, though (if it has been necessary) you have suffered for the moment somewhat from various trials; 7 that the genuineness of your faith — a thing far more precious than gold, which is perishable, yet has to be tested by fire — may win praise and glory and honor at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

Consider changing to this for naturalness and accuracy:

 6 In this you rejoice, even though now for a short while you suffer from various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith — a thing far more precious than gold, which perishes though is tested by fire — may win praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
1 Peter 1: 8-10 in the OEB reads:

Though you have never seen him, yet you love him; though you do not even now see him, yet you believe in him, and exalt with a triumphant happiness too great for words,  as you receive the reward of your faith in the salvation of your souls!

Consider changing to this, to be more accurate to the greek, esp on the term "psyche" (as lives vs souls) and "telos" (as end state or goal, vs reward)

Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you are not seeing him now, you are still believing in him, and you rejoice, with a joy that is indescribable and glorious, for you are receiving the final achievement of your faith - the saving of your lives.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
Just a few notes here:

1. You have changed ever seen to not seen. While οὐκ does have a plain/wooden translation of not, when it is joined with the participle οὐκ ἰδόντες, I think never better expresses the sequential/time aspect of the phrase. Although I do not most translations choose not, NLT being the only one that chooses never.

2. I agree reward may not be the best translation, Im not sure I agree with "final achievement". Note: It seems most translations choose either "goal" or "outcome" (NIV is "end result").

3. In my opinion, the semantic range of "life/lives" in English includes "life on earth", and is more likely to be read that way by a native English speaking reader. Whereas, in my opinion, soul by default has a more spiritual/eternal implication. I cant find a modern English translation that chooses "life" over "soul" in this passage.

4. "you are still believing in him" I love expressing out the participle into the English as much as possible, something is certaily lost in the translaiton—In my opinion, most translations avoid expressing the sense of the pariiciple. However in this instance, I don't think "you are still believing in him" is something you would ever hear any modern English speaker say or write.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
Israel Rhoden wrote
3. In my opinion, the semantic range of "life/lives" in English includes "life on earth", and is more likely to be read that way by a native English speaking reader. Whereas, in my opinion, soul by default has a more spiritual/eternal implication. I cant find a modern English translation that chooses "life" over "soul" in this passage.
Inspiration for Joel Osteens next edition of "Your best Life now" comes to mind. :D

http://www.bookdepository.com/Your-Best-Life-Now-Joel-Osteen/9781455550579?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base8&utm_source=AU&utm_content=Your-Best-Life-Now&selectCurrency=AUD&w=AF45AU96189QGDA8ZT5Q&pdg=kwd-104398726419:cmp-168747699:adg-9591243219:crv-39378132939:pid-9781455550579&gclid=CIGi0M2e388CFQ0IvAodx9YCIw
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Israel Rhoden
All good comments: my quick thoughts....

For point 1, if never seen fits the greek better, I'm good.

For point 2: This fits with a bigger question I've had over how to best translate the word "psyche" which in another thread I've posted the argument that this word is more than just a disembodied otherworldly connotations in the word "soul."  And in terms of major translations choices here, the HSCB did include "lives" in the footnote as an alternative translation for this verse.

For point 3: I'm all for a more natural English expression, this was me trying to get the Greek tenses as close to an English tense as I could. Maybe:

"Though you don't see him now, you  still believe in him,"
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
I love reading your translation's, they pick up on debates I am generally interested in (Im not just trying to argue with you for the sake of it).

It is my understanding that the problem with translating ψυχή is that it clearly had a very wide semantic range, ie it could be used to genuinely mean a physical living on earth being, or a disembodied non pysical thing. It could apparently also mean _both_ at the same time.

However in modern English, "life" has primarily a physical now connotation. Yet, soul in old english had both a physical and metaphysical sense. If I am understanding correctly, our discomfort with "soul" is that its original semantic range is much closer to the greek word ψυχή, but in modern english it is no longer often used to refer to a physical life.   Personally I think "soul" still fits, as for the most part people (especially christians) recognise that this word has the full semantic range of the greek. However it would be interesting to see what a survey of teenagers would reveal about the trend of this word.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
BDAG on the word, for those who dont have it:

ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (Hom.+; ‘life, soul’) It is oft. impossible to draw hard and fast lines in the use of this multivalent word. Gen. it is used in ref. to dematerialized existence or being, but, apart fr. other data, the fact that ψ. is also a dog’s name suggests that the primary component is not metaphysical, s. SLonsdale, Greece and Rome 26, ’79, 146–59. Without ψ. a being, whether human or animal, consists merely of flesh and bones and without functioning capability. Speculations and views respecting the fortunes of ψ. and its relation to the body find varied expression in our lit.
        1. life on earth in its animating aspect making bodily function possible
        a. (breath of) life, life-principle, soul, of animals (Galen, Protr. 13 p. 42, 27 John; Gen 9:4) Rv 8:9. As a rule of human beings (Gen 35:18; 3 Km 17:21; ApcEsdr 5:13 λαμβάνει τὴν ψυχὴν the fetus in its sixth month) Ac 20:10. When it leaves the body death occurs Lk 12:20 (cp. Jos., C. Ap. 1, 164; on the theme cp. Pind., I. 1, 67f). The soul is delivered up to death (the pass. in ref. to divine initiative), i.e. into a condition in which it no longer makes contact with the physical structure it inhabited 1 Cl 16:13 (Is 53:12), whereupon it leaves the realm of earth and lives on in Hades (Lucian, Dial. Mort. 17, 2; Jos., Ant. 6, 332) Ac 2:27 (Ps 15:10), 31 v.l. or some other place outside the earth Rv 6:9; 20:4; ApcPt 10:25 (GrBar 10:5 τὸ πεδίον . . . οὗπερ ἔρχονται αἱ ψυχαὶ τῶν δικαίων; ApcEsdr 7:3 ἀπέρχεται εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; Himerius, Or. 8 [23]: his consecrated son [παῖς ἱερός 7] Rufinus, when he dies, leaves his σῶμα to the death-daemon, while his ψυχή goes into οὐρανός, to live w. the gods 23).—B 5:13 (s. Ps 21:21).
        b. the condition of being alive, earthly life, life itself (Diod. S. 1, 25, 6 δοῦναι τὴν ψυχήν=give life back [to the dead Horus]; [p. 1099] 3, 26, 2; 14, 65, 2; 16, 78, 5; Jos., Ant. 18, 358 σωτηρία τῆς ψυχῆς; 14, 67; s. Reader, Polemo 354 [reff.]) ζητεῖν τὴν ψυχήν τινος Mt 2:20 (cp. Ex 4:19); Ro 11:3 (3 Km 19:10, 14). δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν ἑαυτοῦ (cp. Eur., Phoen. 998) Mt 20:28; Mk 10:45; John says for this τιθέναι τὴν ψυχὴν J 10:11, 15, 17, (18); 13:37f; 15:13; 1J 3:16ab; παραδιδόναι Ac 15:26; Hs 9, 28, 2. παραβολεύεσθαι τῇ ψυχῇ Phil 2:30 (s. παραβολεύομαι). To love one’s own life (JosAs 13:1 ἐγὼ ἀγαπῶ αὐτὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν ψυχήν μου) Rv 12:11; cp. B 1:4; 4:6; 19:5; D 2:7. Life as prolonged by nourishment Mt 6:25ab; Lk 12:22f. Cp. 14:26; Ac 20:24; 27:10, 22; 28:19 v.l.; Ro 16:4. S. also 2e below.
        c. by metonymy, that which possesses life/soul  (cp. 3 below) ψυχὴ ζῶσα (s. Gen 1:24) a living creature Rv 16:3 v.l. for ζωῆς. Cp. ἐγένετο Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν 1 Cor 15:45 (Gen 2:7. S. πνεῦμα 5f). ψυχὴ ζωῆς Rv 16:3.
        2. seat and center of the inner human life in its many and varied aspects, soul
        a. of the desire for luxurious living (cp. the OT expressions Ps 106:9 [=ParJer 9:20, but in sense of d below]; Pr 25:25; Is 29:8; 32:6; Bar 2:18b; PsSol 4:17. But also X., Cyr. 8, 7, 4; ins in Ramsay, CB I/2, 477 no. 343, 5 the soul as the seat of enjoyment of the good things in life) of the rich man ἐρῶ τῇ ψυχῇ μου· ψυχή, ἀναπαύου, φάγε, πίε, εὐφραίνου Lk 12:19 (cp. PsSol 5:12; Aelian, VH 1, 32 εὐφραίνειν τὴν ψυχήν; X., Cyr. 6, 2, 28 ἡ ψυχὴ ἀναπαύσεται.—The address to the ψυχή as PsSol 3, 1; Cyranides p. 41, 27). Cp. Rv 18:14.
        b. of evil desires (PsSol 4:13; Tat. 23, 2) 2 Cl 16:2; 17:7.
        c. of feelings and emotions (Anacr., fgm. 4 Diehl2 [15 Page]; Diod. S. 8, 32, 3; JosAs 6:1; SibOr 3, 558; Just., D. 2, 4; Mel., P. 18, 124 al.) περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου (cp. Ps 41:6, 12; 42:5) Mt 26:38; Mk 14:34. ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται J 12:27; cp. Ac 2:43 (s. 3 below).—Lk 1:46; 2:35; J 10:24; Ac 14:2, 22; 15:24; Ro 2:9; 1 Th 2:8 (τὰς ἑαυτῶν ψυχάς our hearts full of love); Hb 12:3; 2 Pt 2:8; 1 Cl 16:12 (Is 53:11); 23:3 (scriptural quot. of unknown origin); B 3:1, 5b (s. on these two passages Is 58:3, 5, 10b); 19:3; Hm 4, 2, 2; 8:10; Hs 1:8; 7:4; D 3:9ab. ἐμεγαλύνθη ἡ ψυχή μου GJs 5:2; 19:2 (s. μεγαλύνω 1). αὔξειν τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ Παύλου AcPl Ha 6, 10. It is also said of God in the anthropomorphic manner of expr. used by the OT ὁ ἀγαπητός μου εἰς ὃν εὐδόκησεν ἡ ψυχή μου Mt 12:18 (cp. Is 42:1); cp. Hb 10:38 (Hab 2:4).—One is to love God ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ Mt 22:37; Lk 10:27. Also ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς (Dt 6:5; 10:12; 11:13) Mk 12:30, 33 v.l. (for ἰσχύος); Lk 10:27 v.l. (Epict. 2, 23, 42; 3, 22, 18; 4, 1, 131; M. Ant. 12, 29; Sextus 379.—X., Mem. 3, 11, 10 ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ). ἐκ ψυχῆς from the heart, gladly (Jos., Ant. 17, 177.—The usual form is ἐκ τῆς ψυχῆς: X., An. 7, 7, 43, Apol. 18 al.; Theocr. 8, 35) Eph 6:6; Col 3:23; ἐκ ψυχῆς σου B 3:5a (Is 58:10a); 19:6. μιᾷ ψυχῇ with one mind (Dio Chrys. 19 [36], 30) Phil 1:27; cp. Ac 4:32 (on the combination w. καρδία s. that word 1bη and EpArist 17); 2 Cl 12:3 (s. 1 Ch 12:39b; Diog. L. 5, 20 ἐρωτηθεὶς τί ἐστι φίλος, ἔφη· μία ψυχὴ δύο σώμασιν ἐνοικοῦσα).
        d. as the seat and center of life that transcends the earthly (Pla., Phd. 28, 80ab; Paus. 4, 32, 4 ἀθάνατός ἐστιν ἀνθρώπου ψ.; Just., A I, 44, 9 περὶ ἀθανασίας ψυχῆς; Ath. 27, 2 ἀθάνατος οὖσα. Opp. Tat. 13, 1, who argues the state of the ψ. before the final judgment and states that it is not immortal per se but experiences the fate of the body οὐκ ἔστιν ἀθάνατος). As such it can receive divine salvation σῴζου σὺ καὶ ἡ ψυχή σου be saved, you and your soul Agr 5 (Unknown Sayings 61–64). σῴζειν τὰς ψυχάς Js 1:21. ψυχὴν ἐκ θανάτου 5:20; cp. B 19:10; Hs 6, 1, 1 (on death of the ψ. s. Achilles Tat. 7, 5, 3 τέθνηκας θάνατον διπλοῦν, ψυχῆς κ. σώματος). σωτηρία ψυχῶν 1 Pt 1:9. περιποίησις ψυχῆς Hb 10:39. It can also be lost 2 Cl 15:1; B 20:1; Hs 9, 26, 3. Humans cannot injure it, but God can hand it over to destruction Mt 10:28ab; AcPl Ha 1, 4. ζημιωθῆναι τὴν ψυχήν (ζημιόω 1) Mt 16:26a; Mk 8:36 (FGrant, Introd. to NT Thought, ’50, 162); 2 Cl 6:2. There is nothing more precious than ψυχή in this sense Mt 16:26b; Mk 8:37. It stands in contrast to σῶμα, in so far as that is σάρξ (cp. Ar. 15, 7 οὐ κατὰ σάρκα . . . ἀλλὰ κατὰ ψυχήν; Tat. 15, 1 οὔτε . . . χωρὶς σώματος; Ath. 1, 4 τὰ σώματα καὶ τὰς ψυχάς; SIG 383, 42 [I BC]) Dg 6:1–9. The believer’s soul knows God 2 Cl 17:1. One Christian expresses the hope that all is well w. another’s soul 3J 2 (s. εὐοδόω). For the soul of the Christian is subject to temptations 1 Pt 2:11 and 2 Pt 2:14; longs for rest Mt 11:29 (ParJer 5:32 ὁ θεὸς . . . ἡ ἀνάπαυσις τῶν ψυχῶν); and must be purified 1 Pt 1:22 (cp. Jer 6:16). The soul must be entrusted to God 1 Pt 4:19; cp. 1 Cl 27:1. Christ is its ποιμὴν καὶ ἐπίσκοπος (s. ἐπίσκοπος 1) 1 Pt 2:25; its ἀρχιερεὺς καὶ προστάτης 1 Cl 61:3; its σωτήρ MPol 19:2. Apostles and congregational leaders are concerned about the souls of the believers 2 Cor 12:15; Hb 13:17. The Christian hope is called the anchor of the soul 6:19. Paul calls God as a witness against his soul; if he is lying, he will forfeit his salvation 2 Cor 1:23.—Also life of this same eternal kind κτήσεσθε τὰς ψυχὰς ὑμῶν you will gain (real) life for yourselves Lk 21:19.
        e. Since the soul is the center of both the earthly (1a) and the transcendent (2d) life, pers. can find themselves facing the question concerning the wish to ensure it for themselves: ὃς ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι, ἀπολέσει αὐτὴν· ὃς δ᾿ ἂν ἀπολέσει τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ, σώσει αὐτήν Mk 8:35. Cp. Mt 10:39; 16:25; Lk 9:24; 17:33; J 12:25. The contrast betw. τὴν ψυχὴν εὑρεῖν and ἀπολέσαι is found in Mt 10:39ab (s. HGrimme, BZ 23, ’35, 263f); 16:25b; σῶσαι and ἀπολέσαι vs. 25a; Mk 8:35ab; Lk 9:24ab; περιποιήσασθαι, ζῳογονῆσαι and ἀπολέσαι 17:33; φιλεῖν and ἀπολλύναι J 12:25a; μισεῖν and φυλάσσειν vs. 25b.
        f.On the combination of ψυχή and πνεῦμα in 1 Th 5:23; Hb 4:12 (Just., D. 6, 2; Tat. 15, 1 χρὴ . . . ζευγνύναι . . . τὴν ψυχὴν τῷ πνεύματι τῷ ἁγίῳ) s. πνεῦμα 3a, end.—A-JFestugière, L’idéal religieux des Grecs et l’Évangile ’32, 212–17.—A unique combination is . . . σωμάτων, καὶ ψυχὰς ἀνθρώπων, slaves and human lives Rv 18:13 (cp. Ezk 27:13; on the syntax s. Mussies 98).
        g. In var. Semitic languages the reflexive relationship is paraphrased with נֶפֶשׁ (Gr.-Rom. parallels in W-S. §22, 18b note 33); the corresp. use of ψυχή may be detected in certain passages in our lit., esp. in quots. fr. the OT and in places where OT modes of expr. have had considerable influence (B-D-F §283, 4; W-S. §22, 18b; Mlt. 87; 105 n. 2; Rob. 689; KHuber, Untersuchungen über d. Sprachcharakter des griech. Lev., diss. Zürich 1916, 67), e.g. Mt 11:29; 26:38; Mk 10:45; 14:34; Lk 12:19; 14:26; J 10:24; 12:27; 2 Cor 1:23; 3J 2; Rv 18:14; 1 Cl 16:11 (Is 53:10); B 3:1, 3 (Is 58:3, 5); 4:2; 17:1. Cp. also 2 Cor 12:15; Hb 13:17; GJs 2:2; 13:2; 15:3 (on these last s. ταπεινόω 2b).
        3. an entity w. personhood, person ext. of 2 by metonymy (cp. 1c): πᾶσα ψυχή everyone (Epict.  1, 28, 4; Lev 7:27; 23:29 al.) Ac 2:43; 3:23 (Lev 23:29); Ro 2:9; 13:1; Jd 15; 1 Cl 64; Hs 9, 18, 5.—Pl. persons, cp. our expression ‘number of souls’ (Pla. et al.; PTebt 56, 11 [II BC] σῶσαι ψυχὰς πολλάς; LXX) ψυχαὶ ὡσεὶ τρισχίλιαι Ac 2:41; cp. 7:14 (Ex 1:5); 27:37; 1 Pt 3:20.—This may also be the place for ἔξεστιν ψυχὴν σῶσαι η ἀποκτεῖναι; is it permissible to rescue a person (a human life is also poss.) or must we let the person die? Mk 3:4; Lk 6:9. Cp. 9:55 [56] v.l.—EHatch, Essays in Bibl. Gk. 1889, 112–24; [p. 1100] ERohde, Psyche9–10 1925; JBöhme, D. Seele u. das Ich im homer. Epos 1929; EBurton, Spirit, Soul and Flesh 1918; FRüsche, Blut, Leben u. Seele 1930; MLichtenstein, D. Wort nefeš in d. Bibel 1920; WStaples, The ‘Soul’ in the OT: JSL 44, 1928, 145–76; FBarth, La notion Paulinienne de ψυχή: RTP 44, 1911, 316–36; ChGuignebert, RHPR 9, 1929, 428–50; NSnaith, Life after Death: Int 1, ’47, 309–25; essays by OCullmann, HWolfson, WJaeger, HCadbury in Immortality and Resurrection, ed. KStendahl, ’65, 9–53; GDautzenberg, Sein Leben Bewahren ’66 (gospels); R Jewett, Paul’s Anthropological Terms, ’71, 334–57; also lit. cited GMachemer, HSCP 95, ’93, 121, 13.—TJahn, Zum Wortfeld ‘Seele-Geist’ in der Sprache Homers (Zetemata 83) ’81.—B. 1087. New Docs 4, 38f (trichotomy). DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

russellallen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Timchambers
I’m not entirely happy with the ‘in the last time’ phase, because I’m not sure it conveys anything in English - any thoughts?

What are we trying to convey that isn’t conveyed by the phrase ‘in the end’ for example?

Other options people have chosen:
on the last day
at the end of time
at the final point of time

Russell


On 21 May 2016, at 7:40 am, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

1st Peter 1:3-5 in the OEB currently reads:

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has, in his great mercy, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 given us the new life of undying hope, that promises an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled and unfading, which has been reserved for you in heaven — 5 for you who, through faith, are being guarded by the power of God, awaiting a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last days.

Consider changing to this which is a little more natural and more accurate to the greek:

Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy, he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance, imperishable, stainless, unfading, kept in Heaven for you - 5 who through faith, are being guarded by the power of God, awaiting a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.



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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

russellallen
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In reply to this post by Timchambers
I’m a bit slow getting to these, but how about:

\v 6 Rejoice in this, even though now for a short while you suffer from various trials.
\v 7 Gold, which can be destroyed, is tested by fire; these trials test the genuineness of your faith, which is more precious than gold, so that it may prove worthy of praise and glory and [us:honor|cth:honour] when Jesus Christ is revealed.

The problem I’m trying to get round is the complexity of \v7 in particular the "a thing far more precious than gold, which perishes though is tested by fire”

REB is

1Pet. 1:7 Even gold passes through the assayer’s fire, and much more precious than perishable gold is faith which stands the test. These trials come so that your faith may prove itself worthy of all praise, glory, and honour when Jesus Christ is revealed. 

TEV is

1Pet. 1:7 Their purpose is to prove that your faith is genuine. Even gold, which can be destroyed, is tested by fire; and so your faith, which is much more precious than gold, must also be tested, so that it may endure. Then you will receive praise and glory and honor on the Day when Jesus Christ is revealed. 

UBS translators notes say:

The purpose of all these trials is to prove that their faith is genuine. Literally, this is “the testing of your faith” or “the genuineness of your faith” (RSV), since the Greek word involves not only testing but determining the genuineness or value of an event or object. The testing has the primary purpose of proving whether the faith is genuine or not, and this is made very clear in the TEV (compare NEB “faith which has stood the test”; Brc “a tried and tested faith”). Faith can be understood as in verse 5, namely, “trust” in God or in Jesus Christ (for example, German Common Language [GECL]), or perhaps more appropriately as “faithfulness” to God or to Jesus Christ (Best, page 78). As is often the case, however, most modern translations, including the TEV, translate faith literally.
Their purpose must be often expressed as “the reason why you suffer” or “the reason why you experience troubles.”
That your faith is genuine may be expressed as “that your trust in Christ is real” or “that you really trust Christ” or “…trust God.”
The testing of faith is compared to the process of refining gold. As one can see from the RSV, the metaphor about gold is a dependent clause. The TEV has restructured the embedded clause into a separate sentence, in order to make the verb less complex and so that the meaning can easily be understood. (See also NEB and Brc, where the metaphor is put at the beginning of the verse.) In the process of refining gold, it is burned in order to remove its impurities. It is this refining process which has made gold a favorite metaphor in talking about faith (for example, Prov 17.3; 27.21; Psa 66.10). Peter adds the observation that gold is material and can be destroyed, and is therefore less valuable than faith, which is spiritual.
Even gold, which can be destroyed, is tested by fire may be somewhat restructured as “gold can be destroyed, but it is tested by fire.” The two passives in this sentence must, however, be made active in some instances, for example, “people can destroy gold, but they test it by fire” or “even gold, which people can destroy, they test by fire.” It may, however, be important to translate “they test by fire” as “they test by heating it very hot” or “they test by putting it in a hot furnace.”
As gold, then, is refined by the use of fire, so faith must also be tested, that it may endure. This last clause is literally “may be found.” One way of interpreting this is to connect it directly to what follows, as the RSV has done (so also Mft, NEB, SPCL “So that your faith…will merit approval, glory and honor…”). Another way is to connect “found” with the result of the testing, namely, that faith is proved genuine (compare GECL “your trust must be tested…to see if it is really genuine”). A person who possesses such a faith will receive praise and glory and honor on the Day when Jesus Christ is revealed. The source of all this is most probably God himself, and it may be advisable to make this explicit, since leaving it implicit would make it possible to understand that the source of praise, etc., is people. Glory may be understood as “greatness,” “splendor” (GECL), or simply as parallel to “praise” and “honor.” This trilogy is often found in other biblical writings (for example, Rom 8.17; 2 Cor 3.18; Col 3.4; for “glory and honor,” see Job 40.5; 1 Tim 1.17; Rom 2.7, 10).
The transitional expression and so may be expressed as “and in the same way” or “and in a similar manner.”
The expression your faith must be rendered in the same way as it is expressed in the first part of this same verse.
Which is much more precious than gold may be rendered as “your trust in God is much more valuable than is gold.”
Must also be tested may be expressed as “must also experience trouble,” though it is important to try to employ the same expression of faith as one uses in describing the testing of gold, but in a number of languages this simply is not possible. Something of the parallelism may be expressed by speaking of the testing of gold as “gold…is heated very hot in order to show whether it is genuine” and “your trust in God…must experience trouble in order to show whether your trust is genuine.”
The clause that it may endure is not explicit in the Greek text but it is implied in a sense by the expression for “testing.” This type of expression may be rendered by a negative equivalent, for example, “that it may not fail” or “that it may not disappear.”
The so-called substitute passive in the expression you will receive praise and glory and honor must be rendered in some 

On 22 May 2016, at 4:37 am, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

1 Pet 1:6-7 currently read in the OEB:  

6 At the thought of this you are full of exultation, though (if it has been necessary) you have suffered for the moment somewhat from various trials; 7 that the genuineness of your faith — a thing far more precious than gold, which is perishable, yet has to be tested by fire — may win praise and glory and honor at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

Consider changing to this for naturalness and accuracy:

 6 In this you rejoice, even though now for a short while you suffer from various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith — a thing far more precious than gold, which perishes though is tested by fire — may win praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
In reply to this post by russellallen
> I’m not entirely happy with the ‘in the last time’ phase, because I’m not sure it conveys anything in English - any thoughts?
>
> What are we trying to convey that isn’t conveyed by the phrase ‘in the end’ for example?
>
> Other options people have chosen:
>on the last day
>at the end of time
>at the final point of time

ἐν καιρῷ ἐσχάτῳ

The question is, is intended to describe:

1. a point in time (i.e. at the end point of time)
2. or a season/time period (i.e. in the final age; on the last day)

Both of these options are outlined clearly in BDAG. So the problem is, we need to pick one when translating to English. I am not familiar enough with the corpus attributed to Peter that I could come down on which option what Peter means.

In light of the fact that all literal translations, and most other translations choose a literal "in the last time" translation. I think good justification would be needed before applying an interpretive gloss on it.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

russellallen
Administrator
Sure, once I know what it means, the phrase ‘in the last time’ makes sense as a translation. :)

But I’m not sure it conveys anything to a reader who doesn’t already know what it means…

It doesn’t seem like a normal use of the noun ‘time'


On 15 Nov. 2016, at 11:18 am, Israel Rhoden [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I’m not entirely happy with the ‘in the last time’ phase, because I’m not sure it conveys anything in English - any thoughts?
>
> What are we trying to convey that isn’t conveyed by the phrase ‘in the end’ for example?
>
> Other options people have chosen:
>on the last day
>at the end of time
>at the final point of time

ἐν καιρῷ ἐσχάτῳ

The question is, is intended to describe:

1. a point in time (i.e. at the end point of time)
2. or a season/time period (i.e. in the final age; on the last day)

Both of these options are outlined clearly in BDAG. So the problem is, we need to pick one when translating to English. I am not familiar enough with the corpus attributed to Peter that I could come down on which option what Peter means.

In light of the fact that all literal translations, and most other translations choose a literal "in the last time" translation. I think good justification would be needed before applying an interpretive gloss on it.


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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
> Sure, once I know what it means, the phrase ‘in the last time’ makes sense as a translation. :)
>
> But I’m not sure it conveys anything to a reader who doesn’t already know what it means…
>
> It doesn’t seem like a normal use of the noun ‘time'

Yep, it is certainly awkward in English. It is for this reason I think it is significant that mainstream bible translations avoid providing an interpretive gloss. I suspect no interpretive gloss is provided because the translators are trying to avoid making a theological statement that affirms a particular eschatological view. (i.e. is there a millennium, or simply a "day" of judgement). Hence, I think strong justification is needed to support one particular gloss.

However, as I said earlier, I am no expert on these particular catholic letters, and hence I am hesitant to say anything else except to suggest good reasoning would be wise.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
So for 1 Peter 10:5 we are trying to accurately translate  "eschatos kairos." And esp "karios" in a more natural way than just "time." And if possible to do so in a way that caputres that the original greek is not specific to a unique time, or a season.

Does this help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kairos

It almost seems to denote a "critical time" element to it vs just time as a generic measurement. But maybe we just use this:

"...who through faith, are being guarded by the power of God, awaiting a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final days."
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

russellallen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Israel Rhoden
It’s a bit tricky :)

Maybe we should put out more formal translation guidelines, but in essence I’ve been following:

  1. result should be English, and clear, grammatically correct, modern (but not slang), genre-sensitive (i.e. we have more latitude in poetry)
  2. unless we have good reason, keep within the scope of the various translation choices of the mainstream English translations, e.g. NRSV/ESV REB (T)NIV, TEV, CEV, CEB, NJB, NET, NLT(2nd Ed)
  3. keep the OEB wording where appropriate
  4. given equally balanced alternatives, give a bit of weight to the non-Tyndale (i.e. the KJV/RV/ESV/WEB/NRSV family) option. This is just to keep us from falling into the trap of slowly converting the OEB into the ESV bit by bit.

If I were to follow this in this case, the phrase ‘in the last time’ meets R2 but is a bit iffy on R1.

Tim’s suggestion to keep  ‘in the last days’ meets R1, doesn’t quite meet R2 but is clearly within the general ambit of other choices, meets R3 and R4.

I’m all on board for avoiding interpretative gloss, but not at the expense of R1 because all that is doing is punting the issue to the poor reader who is even less able to deal with the issue than us poor fools!

I’m not up with the literature on 1Pe eschatology either, except for the general impression that this debate has been going on for a century or so and it seems likely to be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction soon (or indeed until we’re in last time. Or at the end of days. Or end point of time :) :)

Russell


On 15 Nov. 2016, at 9:02 pm, Israel Rhoden [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sure, once I know what it means, the phrase ‘in the last time’ makes sense as a translation. :)
>
> But I’m not sure it conveys anything to a reader who doesn’t already know what it means…
>
> It doesn’t seem like a normal use of the noun ‘time'

Yep, it is certainly awkward in English. It is for this reason I think it is significant that mainstream bible translations avoid providing an interpretive gloss. I suspect no interpretive gloss is provided because the translators are trying to avoid making a theological statement that affirms a particular eschatological view. (i.e. is there a millennium, or simply a "day" of judgement). Hence, I think strong justification is needed to support one particular gloss.

However, as I said earlier, I am no expert on these particular catholic letters, and hence I am hesitant to say anything else except to suggest good reasoning would be wise.


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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Israel Rhoden
I guess the bonus of being a revision rather than a fresh translation is that you can always leave as is anything that is too tricky to resolve for the time being.

A slightly more formal translation guide would be helpful. Especially if the aims of this translation project are to pull in and involve people from all sorts of backgrounds with potentially different and conflicting views. For example, Im not even sure if the process of updating includes a goal to lean towards literal translations r towards modern english idiom in the places where a literal translation would be difficult to follow for a non-Christian reader.

That said, I am only here because I enjoy getting email popping up in my inbox about Greek/English translation issues and I enjoy becoming exposed to translational issues I haven't come across yet.

PS: Have I ever mentioned it would be nice to have an Accordance module with the current work to date, it would certainly make reviewing the text easier.
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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

russellallen
Administrator

On 16 Nov. 2016, at 3:11 pm, Israel Rhoden [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess the bonus of being a revision rather than a fresh translation is that you can always leave as is anything that is too tricky to resolve for the time being.

In theory…

A slightly more formal translation guide would be helpful. Especially if the aims of this translation project are to pull in and involve people from all sorts of backgrounds with potentially different and conflicting views. For example, Im not even sure if the process of updating includes a goal to lean towards literal translations r towards modern english idiom in the places where a literal translation would be difficult to follow for a non-Christian reader.

I’ll see if I can write up something more comprehensive and share it on the list. I’ve tried in the past but not been happy with my result...

That said, I am only here because I enjoy getting email popping up in my inbox about Greek/English translation issues and I enjoy becoming exposed to translational issues I haven't come across yet.

:)

PS: Have I ever mentioned it would be nice to have an Accordance module with the current work to date, it would certainly make reviewing the text easier.

I don’t know how to do a proper module (I think you need them to do it for you), but if you download the file


then you can import it as a User Bible - see File > User Files > Import Bible Text…

Cheers, Russell


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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Timchambers
1 Peter 1:10-11 currently reads:


It was this salvation that the prophets, who spoke long ago of the blessing intended for you, sought, and strove to comprehend; 11 as they strove to discern what that time could be, to which the Spirit of Christ within them was pointing, when foretelling the sufferings that Christ would have to endure, and the glories that would follow.


Consider this, a bit closer the original greek, removed some verbage that didn't seem to be there in the greek, and a bit more natural English:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets - who predicted the blessing that were to come for you - searched and inquired intensely. 11 They strove to discern to whom - and to what time - the Spirit of Christ within them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow.

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Re: Working Through the book of 1st Peter

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
1 Peter 1:12 currently reads:


And it was revealed to them that it was not for themselves, but for you, that they were acting as Ministers of the truths which have now been told to you, by those who, with the help of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, have brought you the good news – truths into which even angels long to look.


Consider changing to:

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you. These things have now been told to you by those who preached the gospel by the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven - things to which Angels long to glimpse.
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