Working through a smaller Book - Titus

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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
OK, that is my pass on Titus. Hope it helps. Think I'll find another shorter book next.
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
In reply to this post by Timchambers
(Timchambers)
Consider these changes:

"4 But, when the kindness of God our Savior and his love of all humanity appeared, he saved us, 5 not as the result of any righteous actions that we had done, but due to his mercy. He saved us by that washing of rebirth, and by the renewing power of the Holy Spirit, 6 which he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our Savior --7 that, having been justified by this grace, we become heirs due to the hope of eternal life." (~Timchanbers)

NOTE: we may want to consider translating "eternal life" as "life of the ages." But this may be a larger question for all the times this greek phrase is used.


(Robin)
So Timchambers, is this, or is it not a site for gathering and evaluating input, suggested adjustments for the OEB ... or did this project just whther away and die on the vine? That is, I dont see much input on your website, nor do I see any feedback on the suggested adjustment that you do receive ... what's going on?

But then, back to Titus, which might eventually prove to be one of the earliest epistles that Paul authored ...interesting, that you addressed these four verses as a group; I too find that this epistle is structured this way. Remind me, again please, what the source text of the OEB is; that is, are you working from a Byzantine or Alexandrian basis; did you start out making adjustments from something along the lines of the NIV, or that of Young's Literal? Or, is the OEB intended to be just another attempt at paraphrase, like "The Message," or "The Living Bible" ... And as long as I'm asking about methodology, why isn't there some means provided, to alert the reader of whcih words have been added for purposes of clarification?  


So, here's my take on these four verses (3:4-7) of Titus ... let's see how they compare with your's ...

 
 "3:3 For when-once we also, we were uncomprehending, unpersuaded [ones] being deceived, slaving unto desires and various gratifications, through-leading in evil and envy, detestable [ones], to one-another hating. 3:4 Yet when the kindness and the man-fondness of the Saviour of us, of God, she was emerged *3:5 (not out of the works in righteousness, of which [works] we, we had done, but according-to the mercy of Same), to us He had saved through a bath of renascence, and a renewal of sanctified spirit, 3:6 of which a [spirit], on to us He had out-poured richly, through Yeshua Anointed, the Saviour of us, *3:7 so-that having been made-righteous unto the grace of that [One], we should become allotees according-to an expectation of an eonian life." (~Robin)

Note: The bracketed words are those that have been added for clarification; and the asterisks are there to alert the reader that a particular verse includes a text fource variant; that is, there's something in the verse that follows the Majority sorce texts, rather than the Minority source text readings (e.g., NIV)
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
"3 For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hating ourselves and hating one another. 4 But, when the kindness of God our Savior and his love of all humanity appeared, he saved us, 5 not as the result of any righteous actions that we had done, but due to his mercy. He saved us by that washing of rebirth, and by the renewing power of the Holy Spirit, 6 which he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our Savior --7 that, having been justified by this grace, we become heirs due to the hope of eternal life." (~Timchambers)


"3:3 For when-once we also, we were uncomprehending, unpersuaded [ones] being deceived, slaving unto desires and various gratifications, through-leading in evil and envy; detestable [ones], to one-another hating. 3:4 Yet when the kindness and the man-fondness of the Saviour of us, of God, she was emerged *3:5 (not out of the works in righteousness, of which [works] we, we had done, but according-to the mercy of Same), to us He had saved through a bath of renascence, and a renewal of sanctified spirit, 3:6 of which a [spirit], on to us He had out-poured richly, through Yeshua Anointed, the Saviour of us, *3:7 so-that having been made-righteous unto the grace of that [One], we should become allotees according-to an expectation of an eonian life." (~Robin)

(Robin)
Might we discuss one verse at a time ... word by word ... your's is a paraphrase, of course, while mine is a very literal reading, but still, let's see where the paraphrase might be made more accurate, and still serve the intended purpose of easy reading:

***

"3 For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled,
enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy,
hating ourselves and hating one another."

 ***

"3:3 For when-once we also, we were uncomprehending, unpersuaded [ones] being deceived,
slaving unto desires and various gratifications, through-leading in evil and envy;
detestable [ones], to one-another hating."

***

(Robin)
A word by word review is, indeed, called for, but just to start this discussion, let's look at the third line of this verse (see above), and explore where the editorial enhancement of your "hating ourselves" comes from?  That is, there are only three Greek words involved, here ("στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους"), and I'm glad you brought this to my attention ... I've since added a semicolon, in order to make it more readable.

"στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους"  
στυγητοί = detestable [ones] {4767 A-NPM}
μισοῦντες = hating {3404 V-PAP-NPM}
ἀλλήλους = to one-another [ones] {0240 C-APM}

"detestable [ones], to one-another hating" (~Robin)
"hating ourselves and hating one another" (~Timchambers)

Your added conjunction "and" is understandable, not really needed, but it does makes things flow;
however, your lead in reading of "hating ourselves" is pure enhancement; that is, something that you simply made up out of thin air ... Let's talk about this?

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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
Thanks for the notes and thoughts.... for your question:

"let's look at the third line of this verse (see above), and explore where the editorial enhancement of your "hating ourselves" comes from?  That is, there are only three Greek words involved, here ("στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους"), and I'm glad you brought this to my attention...."

The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation:

 "detested ourselves and hating one another."

I am not a greek translator, my help here has been mainly looking at the English text as it is, comparing tht to a greek interlinear translation, greek lexicons as well as a variety of other translation choices for how they chose to translate the greek words or phrases and using that as a guide to more natural or better phrasing or word choice.


So for ἀλλήλων allḗlōn I looked this up:
 al-lay'-lone; Genitive plural from G243 reduplicated; one another:—each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-)selves, (selves) together (sometimes with G3326 or G4314).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g240

And the mutuality of the word seemed to be a good fit for the original OEB "ourselves and hating one another."

And the other translations, ESV, NIV, and NET took a similar tact. Just saying "hating one another" seems more vague on the part of the lexicon definition that include self-hatred. But open to better more informed translations of the original words than I, a true amature have looking up lexicon definitions.
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
In reply to this post by robin
Robin asked:

"So Timchambers, is this, or is it not a site for gathering and evaluating input, suggested adjustments for the OEB ... or did this project just whther away and die on the vine?"

It definitely is for gathering and evaluated suggested fixes for the OEB. And as to the pace of suggested fixes, I would say that it has quieted down but is ongoing, and I have been going through various shorter epistles as my projects but others have been doing their own. It goes through fits and starts of translation suggestions over time but is ongoing.
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
In reply to this post by robin
Robin asked:

"Remind me, again please, what the source text of the OEB is; that is, are you working from a Byzantine or Alexandrian basis; did you start out making adjustments from something along the lines of the NIV, or that of Young's Literal? Or, is the OEB intended to be just another attempt at paraphrase, like "The Message," or "The Living Bible" ... And as long as I'm asking about methodology, why isn't there some means provided, to alert the reader of whcih words have been added for purposes of clarification?"

Here is the info on that I saw in the FAQ that seems closest to answering both questions:

What English language texts is the OEB based on?
------------------------------------------------

The New Testament of the OEB is being formed on the base of the “Twentieth Century New Testament”, in particular the revised edition published in 1904. The Old Testament books which have been completed at this stage lean heavily on the work of John Edgar McFadyen and Charles Foster Kent, both of whom were very respected turn of the century Old Testament scholars.


What is the underlying textual basis for the OEB?
-------------------------------------------------

The normative text for the OEB New Testament is the Westcott & Hort critical text. Since the NA27 is subject to a claim of copyright, W&H remains the best available (public domain) text.

The normative text for the OEB Old Testament is the Codex Leningradensis (Leningrad Codex); specifically the electronic version of the Westminster Leningrad Codex.


And this for the second question:

The language of the 20CNT has been edited, and continues to be edited:

* to reflect modern English usage (including the use of ‘they’ as a third person single pronoun) at a reading level corresponding roughly to the NEB/REB or NRSV
* to reflect modern scholarship, including on the translation of terms such as ‘the Jews’ in John and terms referring to sexual practices (see TNIV and Dr Ann Nyland’s version)

This editing was moderate, aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity (as an example, the OEB is comfortable with the words ‘Christ’ and ‘Messiah’ and will not replace them with ‘Annointed One’ or similar). A freely licensed translation for the audiences of the Better Life Bible or the CEV is a project for another day.


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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
In reply to this post by Timchambers
Evening Tim,

Just got back from a week business trip with my wife...so just now saw your response concerning our discussion about how one might best read God's words "στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους" ... 

By the way, I've oftern found that a true amature's seeking to rightfully read His words, often proves to be closer to the truth than some of the so-called best professionals ... note, I didn't say scholars, but professionals (those in it for their own gain) ...

I pondered you objection/ hesitation over the reciprocal pronoun 'allElous" {0240 C-APM}
 
(Tim)
Just saying "hating one another" seems more vague ...

(Robin)
Actually, this particular pronoun (used 25 times in Paul's 13 epistles) is Accusative "A" (APM = Accusative Plural Masculine), so I've found it works (for me) to consistently read it with the preceading word "to" ..."to one-another [ones]" ...I do something similar with those words that are genitive and dative; that is include a preceading "unto" with the dative words, and an "of" with the genitive .... this, of course, doesn't always end up showing in my finished English reading (for other various reasons), but it does help me get a good, soundly based, running start at trying to come up with a suitable English reading ...

All that ramble said, I done simply read it, as you suggested ("hating one another"), but rather, as "to one-another [ones]"" ...
note, the editorial addition of "[ones]" is bracketed, so the reader can easily tell that it is, indeed, an addition, intended only to 
show that the pronoun, in this case is plural ... in my finished English reading, I always strive to omit as many bracketed words as possible;
thus in the case of this verse, I read this as "to one-another hating" ... which, does indeed, bring out the " mutuality" and convey the flavor of your suggested "included self-hatre" ... but ... without our having to editorially add the word "ourselves" to the finished English reading. That is, since God (via Paul) did not actyually say "ourselves," I'm thinking that we should make all possible efforts at attempting to convey the intended flavor of this,but do this with as little "help" as possible ... God, always, says it best, it's we who often need the additional word crutches ... most likely, only because we haven't pondered upon deeply enough.

Also, though I should clarify, your post talked to Strongs' #0243 ...

(Tim)
So for ἀλλήλων allḗlōn I looked this up:  al-lay'-lone; Genitive plural from G243 reduplicated; one another ..

(Robin)
Actually the word, here in this verse, is #0240 (C-APM) ..."to one-another [ones]" ...
That is, the difference is that of a reciprocal pronoun and that of an adjective #0243 ...
And, again, the word in this verse isn't Genitive, but Accusative; from what I hear you saying (above), you're suggesting that the word, here,
is "allOn" ...#0243 (A-GPM) ... so then, if it were the Accusative adjective (#0243) used, here, this would be "allous" (A-APM) 

These words have given me fits, in the past ... and still do at times ... but here's what I've compiled from their use in Paul's 13 epistles;
notice, if you will, that I'm yet to find a perfectly consistent reading, in that in some cases I have to use "other" instead of "another" ...

0240  GK0253    allElOn (7)    of one-another [ones]    C-GPM.06

0240  GK0253    allElois (6)    unto one-another [ones]    C-DPM.07

0240  GK0253    allElous (25)    to one-another [ones]   C-APM.08

0240  GK0253    allElOn (1)    of one-another [things]    C-GPN.22



0243  GK0257    allos (2)    another [one]    A-NSM.01

0243  GK0257    allO (7)    unto another [one]    A-DSM.03

0243  GK0257    allon (4)    to another [one]    A-ASM.04

0243  GK0257    alloi (2)    other [ones]    A-NPM.05

0243  GK0257    allOn (1)    of other [ones]    A-GPM.06

0243  GK0257    allois (3)    unto other [ones]    A-DPM.07

0243  GK0257    allous (2)    to other [ones]    A-APM.08

0243  GK0257    allE (7)    another [one]    A-NSF.09

0243  GK0257    allEs (1)    of another [one]    A-GSF.10

0243  GK0257    allas (1)    to other [ones]    A-APF.16

0243  GK0257    allo (1)    another [thing]    A-NSN.17

0243  GK0257    allo (1)    to another [thing]    A-ASN.20

0243  GK0257    alla (1)    to other [things]    A-APN.24



(Tim)
there are only three Greek words involved, here ("στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους"), and I'm glad you brought this to my attention...." 

(Robin)
That's what we're suppose to do, right ... help each other; the Body of Christ working together ...

(Tim)
The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation: 

 "detested ourselves and hating one another." 

I am not a greek translator, my help here has been mainly looking at the English text as it is, comparing tht to a greek interlinear translation, greek lexicons as well as a variety of other translation choices for how they chose to translate the greek words or phrases and using that as a guide to more natural or better phrasing or word choice. 

(Robin)
I, too, tried doing it that way ... for years ... and it always ended up leaving me a bit baffled at times; hence, I put the many different English reading aside (for the moment), and dove into it head first; that is, starting with the Greek, one word at a time, word upon word upon word ...did you know that in just Paul's 13 epistles, that there are over 7000 different words/ word forms (by word forms, I mean, for instance, that  
each individual noun and adjective can be configured 24 different ways:


NSM = .01; GSM = .02; DSM = .03; ASM = .04; NPM = .05; GPM = .06; DPM = .07; APM = .08;

NSF = .09; GSF = .10; DSF = .11; ASF = .12; NPF = .13; GPF = .14; DPF = .15; APF = .16;

NSN = .17; GSN = .18; DSN = .19; ASN = .20; NPN = .21; GPN = .22; DPN =.23; APN = 24


Doesn't take long for the number of "different" words to start adding up ... but word by word, word upon word, I finally compiled my own reading of the Greek epistles .... and only THEN did I begin to compare my amaturish layman's readings against the big boys, the professional translations ... and you know what, Tim, sometimes my own reading is heads and shoulders more informative, consistently concordant, and accurate than the more respectable translations ... and when mine are lame, when I notice this, I quickly change them ... I steal from the best of other's translations; I've no "religious" loyalties, no need to tow the line, advocating one paticular translation over another ... they all have mistakes, and sometimes very obvous mistakes ... I adopt the best of the lot, and trash the rest ... That is, I have "no fear," I simply trust that God's word is clear, I just hve to always be looking for it ... and He will lead me there, when He deems it best, in the meantime, I do my best.  


(Tim)
The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation: 

 "detested ourselves and hating one another." 

(Robin)
Again, Tim, the Greek word for "ourselves" is not present in this verse ... that would be Strong's #1438, if it were ...
specifially, either the dative or accusative plural masculine forms of that word ...
1438  GK1571    heautois (p4)    unto ourselves    F-1DPM.07
1438  GK1571    heautous (11)    to ourselves    F-1APM.08

Here's a better list of the possibilities:

1438  GK1571    heautou (p1/1)    of yourself    F-2GSM.02

1438  GK1571    heautou (20)    of itself/ of himself/ of Himself    F-3GSM.02

1438  GK1571    heautO (12)    unto himself/ unto Himself    F-3DSM.03

1438  GK1571    heauton (22)    to himself/ to Himself    F-3ASM.04

1438  GK1571    heautOn (5)    of ourselves    F-1GPM.06

1438  GK1571    heautOn (4)    of yourselves    F-2GPM.06

1438  GK1571    heautOn (6)    of themselves    F-3GPM.06

1438  GK1571    heautois (p4)    unto ourselves    F-1DPM.07

1438  GK1571    heautois (6)    unto yourselves    F-2DPM.07

1438  GK1571    heautois (7)    unto themselves    F-3DPM.07

1438  GK1571    heautous (11)    to ourselves    F-1APM.08

1438  GK1571    heautous (9)    to yourselves    F-2APM.08

1438  GK1571    heautous (7)    to themselves    F-3APM.08

1438  GK1571    heautEs (3)    of herself    F-3GSF.10

1438  GK1571    heautas (1)    to themselves    F-3APF.16



(Tim)
The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation: 

 "detested ourselves and hating one another." 

(Robin)
But if you feel you must editorially enhance God's words, wouldn't it be more helpful to the reader,
if you, at least, put the additional word in brackets ...  "detested [ourselves] and hating one another." 

(Tim)
The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation: 

 "detested [ourselves] and hating one another." 


(Robin)
Also, Tim, you're mistakenly using the adjective "detestable [ones]" {4767 A-NPM}
as if it were a verb ("detested [ourselves]) ....it's not only not a verb, but it's Greek spelling
suggests that it should be read, in the English, as an "-able" ending word "detestABLE"
... this is, by the way, a "hapax legomenon" or word found only once in the NT ...

4767  GK5144    stugEtoi (~p1~)    detestable [ones]    A-NPM.05

With this adjective (rather than the verb) duley recognized, are you beginning to see how your suggested reading
is becoming more and more untenable ...


(Tim)
The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation: 

 "detestable [ourselves] [and] hating one (to one-)another." 


(Robin)
And, Tim, there is no "and"  (Greek "kai") found in this section of the verse ...
And again, it's the pronoun, not the combination word, hyphenated-adjective; that is "to one-another" not "one" + "another"


"detestable [ones], to one-another hating." (~Robin)


Look as long and as hard as you will, Tim, you wont find a better reading of this, than the one above ...





On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the notes and thoughts.... for your question:

"let's look at the third line of this verse (see above), and explore where the editorial enhancement of your "hating ourselves" comes from?  That is, there are only three Greek words involved, here ("στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους"), and I'm glad you brought this to my attention...."

The answer was I had left that phrase in from the previous translation:

 "detested ourselves and hating one another."

I am not a greek translator, my help here has been mainly looking at the English text as it is, comparing tht to a greek interlinear translation, greek lexicons as well as a variety of other translation choices for how they chose to translate the greek words or phrases and using that as a guide to more natural or better phrasing or word choice.


So for ἀλλήλων allḗlōn I looked this up:
 al-lay'-lone; Genitive plural from G243 reduplicated; one another:—each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-)selves, (selves) together (sometimes with G3326 or G4314).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g240

And the mutuality of the word seemed to be a good fit for the original OEB "ourselves and hating one another."

And the other translations, ESV, NIV, and NET took a similar tact. Just saying "hating one another" seems more vague on the part of the lexicon definition that include self-hatred. But open to better more informed translations of the original words than I, a true amature have looking up lexicon definitions.


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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
Cool: so given your view that this is the most direct literal word-for-word translation:

"detestable [ones], to one-another hating."

Would the ESV's choices of "hated by others and hating one another" or the Voice "hated by many, and hating one another" be closer to accurate natural English translation?

So maybe:

"hated, and hating one another."

So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be:

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another.
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

russellallen
Administrator
In reply to this post by Timchambers
The FAQ is the best summary still I think.

There are obvious disadvantages with going with the W&H and Leningrad Codex as base. In particular for the OT some passages are not comprehensible - translations either have to go with a guess or switch over to the LXX. But it is better than us attempting to create an eclectic base text ourselves! And the differences between W&H and NA27/28 are quite minor.

Most of the major differences between W&H and the Byzantine texts are now footnoted btw. If there is a variant someone thinks should be footnoted which isn’t I’d be happy to consider.

Cheers, Russell

On 27 Mar 2016, at 6:33 am, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Robin asked:

"Remind me, again please, what the source text of the OEB is; that is, are you working from a Byzantine or Alexandrian basis; did you start out making adjustments from something along the lines of the NIV, or that of Young's Literal? Or, is the OEB intended to be just another attempt at paraphrase, like "The Message," or "The Living Bible" ... And as long as I'm asking about methodology, why isn't there some means provided, to alert the reader of whcih words have been added for purposes of clarification?"

Here is the info on that I saw in the FAQ that seems closest to answering both questions:

What English language texts is the OEB based on?
------------------------------------------------

The New Testament of the OEB is being formed on the base of the “Twentieth Century New Testament”, in particular the revised edition published in 1904. The Old Testament books which have been completed at this stage lean heavily on the work of John Edgar McFadyen and Charles Foster Kent, both of whom were very respected turn of the century Old Testament scholars.


What is the underlying textual basis for the OEB?
-------------------------------------------------

The normative text for the OEB New Testament is the Westcott & Hort critical text. Since the NA27 is subject to a claim of copyright, W&H remains the best available (public domain) text.

The normative text for the OEB Old Testament is the Codex Leningradensis (Leningrad Codex); specifically the electronic version of the Westminster Leningrad Codex.


And this for the second question:

The language of the 20CNT has been edited, and continues to be edited:

* to reflect modern English usage (including the use of ‘they’ as a third person single pronoun) at a reading level corresponding roughly to the NEB/REB or NRSV
* to reflect modern scholarship, including on the translation of terms such as ‘the Jews’ in John and terms referring to sexual practices (see TNIV and Dr Ann Nyland’s version)

This editing was moderate, aiming for a scholarly defensible mainstream translation usable within a religious community rather than a translation focused on a readership completely unfamiliar with the Bible or Christianity (as an example, the OEB is comfortable with the words ‘Christ’ and ‘Messiah’ and will not replace them with ‘Annointed One’ or similar). A freely licensed translation for the audiences of the Better Life Bible or the CEV is a project for another day.





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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
In reply to this post by Timchambers
(Tim)
Cool: so given your view that this is the most direct literal word-for-word translation: 

"detestable [ones], to one-another hating."

(Robin)
Not to be argumentative, Tim, but, what I'm telling you isn't just "my view;" that is, this is the very reason I began my seeking to read the NT scriptures directly from the Greek ... True, there are areas where the Greek can be read in varous ways, but what I'm presenting to you in not "my view," but rather a direct and literal word-for-word translation ... Here, let me show you; that is, I'll give you the Greek, than a transliteration, along with a word-by-word English reading. And again, the English reading can and does, in many cases, give one a chance to vary the reading, based on what pleases one's ear, but in this case, there's not a lot one can play with ... that is, it's just three Greek words,common Greek words, that dont really allow for much, if any, in the way of various reading.  True, when one BEGINS with various English readings, there appears to be some latitude in how this would eventually be read, but when one BEGINS with the Greek, it's all rather basic ... cut and dried:

3:3 Ἦμεν γάρ ποτε καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀνόητοι, ἀπειθεῖς, πλανώμενοι, δουλεύοντες ἐπιθυμίαις καὶ ἡδοναῖς ποικίλαις, ἐν κακίᾳ καὶ φθόνῳ διάγοντες, στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους.

 

Emen gar pote kai hEmeis anoEtoi apeitheis planOmenoi douleuontes epithumiais kai hEdonais poikilais en

kakia kai phthonO diagontes stugEtoi misountes allElous


 stugEtoi misountes allElous

 detestable [ones] {4767 A-NPM} hating {3404 V-PAP-NPM} to one-another [ones] {0240 C-APM}


 

(Tim)
Would the ESV's choices of "hated by others and hating one another" or the Voice "hated by many, and hating one another" be closer to accurate natural English translation? 

(Robin)
I'm not familiar with "the Voice" ... I will look it up ... but whatever the case with that, let's look more closely at these two readings:

1)  "hated by others and hating one another" 
2) "hated by many, and hating one another" 

First of all, theve've got their readin of the verb correct ... present acttive participle ..."hating"
HOWEVER, notice...please... that this verb only exist, here, the one time; that is, one can't, in good faith, pretend that it should be 
included in an English reading twice: 1) "hated" and "hating"  2) "hated" and "hating" 
Therefore, Tim, neither of these readings (The Voice, and the ESV) are what God really said, here ... that is, the autors of both these so-called translations are dithering around and adding there own ego enhanced dribble ... Doesn't that sort of make you discusted, it certainly does me! 

Secondly, where the one reading adds .. adds ... "by others," and the other reading adds "by many"
shouldn't we be asking ourselves "where?" they get off in doing this enhancement?  That is, again, 
there are only THREE Greek words involved, so how is it that these so-called translations can come up with 
all these extra English words?  

Thridly, it's true, they have saptured the flavor of the Greek by giving the English reader ..."one another" ...
however, there's a compleatly different Greek word for "one" ... and it aint present in this verse, so they are 
misleading the reader by presenting it thusly to the reader.  That's not to say, that I've yet captured the absolutly 
true reading of "ἀλλήλους" ("allElous"), but my hyphenated "to one-another [ones]" does give the engaged reader
a fighting chance to sort this out for themselves; that is, the reading I give the reader, allows for them to come to a
spirit led conclusion, rather than just having to take the other reading (babble) on faith that the compilor knew best!

And finally, where do these two readings come by the additional words "by" and the conjunction "and" ... this is pure fluff and fancy!
 






So maybe: 

"hated, and hating one another." 

So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be: 

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another. 

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Cool: so given your view that this is the most direct literal word-for-word translation:

"detestable [ones], to one-another hating."

Would the ESV's choices of "hated by others and hating one another" or the Voice "hated by many, and hating one another" be closer to accurate natural English translation?

So maybe:

"hated, and hating one another."

So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be:

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another.


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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
In reply to this post by Timchambers
(Tim)
So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be: 

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another. 


(Robin)
First, the Greek  ...

Ἦμεν γάρ ποτε καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀνόητοι, ἀπειθεῖς, πλανώμενοι, δουλεύοντες ἐπιθυμίαις καὶ ἡδοναῖς ποικίλαις, ἐν κακίᾳ καὶ φθόνῳ διάγοντες, στυγητοί, μισοῦντες ἀλλήλους.


transliterated ...

 

Emen gar pote kai hEmeis anoEtoi apeitheis planOmenoi douleuontes epithumiais kai hEdonais poikilais en

kakia kai phthonO diagontes stugEtoi misountes allElous

 

Expanded, in the English, word by word in it's original syntax (word order), including an accurate analysis of the parsing and declinations:


we were {1510 V-IAI-1P} for {1063 CONJ} when-once {4218 PRT} also {2532 CONJ} we {1473 P-1NP} uncomprehending [ones] {0453 A-NPM} unpersuaded [ones] {0545 A-NPM} being deceived {4105 V-PPP-NPM} slaving {1398 V-PAP-NPM} unto desires {1939 N-DPF} and {2532 CONJ} unto gratifications {2237 N-DPF} unto various [ones] {4164 A-DPF} in {1722 PREP} unto an evil {2549 N-DSF} and {2532 CONJ} unto an envy {5355 N-DSM} through-leading {1236 V-PAP-NPM} detestable [ones] {4767 A-NPM} hating {3404 V-PAP-NPM} to one-another [ones] {0240 C-APM} 

 


(Tim)

So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be: 

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another. 


(Robin)

There are a number of things with this reading that I find wrong ... not just an opinion, but factually wrong ...Too many things, in fact, to address in just this one post; however, since our original conversation was just about the last three words (the last three Greek words), I'll

zero in on those ..."stugEtoi misountes allElous" ..."detestable [ones], to one-another hating" ...


That is, there is no sound basis for your translation to be reading this as " hated and hating one another"

The verb only appears the once, and the past tense "hated" is pure bunk ...

There is no conjuction "and" ...

And the reciprocal pronoun, a single word, is accusative ..."to one-another" ...


Other than that, the rest of you "tweaked" reading is pure junk!


"For when-once we, also, were uncomprehending, unpersuaded [ones] 

being deceived; 

slaving unto various desires and gratifications, 

through-leading in evil and envy;

detestable [ones], to one-another hating." (~Robin)

 


"For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, 

misled, 

enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, 

living in malice and envy

-- hated and hating one another." (~pure junk)


I mean...really! ....there are soooo many things wrong with this, that it's hard to know where to begin?
So imagin this, if you will, you're standing before the dias of God, giving Him you best, and He asks you
about this verse, in particular, and why you chose to present it to fellow believers as if ... as if ... it were
the actual words of God, Himself ... Do you think He's did anyone ... fellow believers or God ...a service?

Tell you what, Tim, it's not going to be a day of applause, but only of damp wet burning straw smoke!
I've just got to be asking ... and you should be asking ... what do you think you're really doing here?
It aint translation, and it aint God's words, and it aint well thought out, and it aint helpful to your fellow believer ...
so what the fuck is it?


On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Timchambers [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Cool: so given your view that this is the most direct literal word-for-word translation:

"detestable [ones], to one-another hating."

Would the ESV's choices of "hated by others and hating one another" or the Voice "hated by many, and hating one another" be closer to accurate natural English translation?

So maybe:

"hated, and hating one another."

So then the whole recommended tweak to the existing OEB for 3:3 would be:

For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, misled, enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, living in malice and envy -- hated and hating one another.


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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

russellallen
Administrator
Hi Robin,
Just a friendly interjection, but the tone of emails on this mailing list should always be kind, courteous and professional. Your wording below is far too aggressive in tone. You may disagree with the translation choices being discussed but more light and less heat would be appreciated.
Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 2:33 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
"For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, 
misled, 
enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, 
living in malice and envy
-- hated and hating one another." (~pure junk)

I mean...really! ....there are soooo many things wrong with this, that it's hard to know where to begin?
So imagin this, if you will, you're standing before the dias of God, giving Him you best, and He asks you
about this verse, in particular, and why you chose to present it to fellow believers as if ... as if ... it were
the actual words of God, Himself ... Do you think He's did anyone ... fellow believers or God ...a service?

Tell you what, Tim, it's not going to be a day of applause, but only of damp wet burning straw smoke!
I've just got to be asking ... and you should be asking ... what do you think you're really doing here?
It aint translation, and it aint God's words, and it aint well thought out, and it aint helpful to your fellow believer ...
so what the fuck is it?


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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
Ya, but it at least got a reply, which is not something that happens very often here ... that my post was a bit too the point and "sweet"
is true; however, I'd already spent hours with "Tim" explaining any number of details, in detail, about just the last three Greek words of this verse, and the factual reasons why they should be read in a particular way ... and yet, nothing was heard ...absolutely nothing ...and then he comes back with this sad lame dvival of a reading .... it's not even a good attempt at paraphrasing.  That is, the Open English Bible really does not want to hear back from anyone, concerning better ways, more factual ways of putting the scriptures into English; the current group of compilers for the OEB have already made up their minds (so dont confuse us with the facts) about the stunted manner that "they" want to hear it read. It's all sort of sad, really, you all dont know what you're doing, and dont care to know ... good luck!

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:08 PM, russellallen [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Robin,
Just a friendly interjection, but the tone of emails on this mailing list should always be kind, courteous and professional. Your wording below is far too aggressive in tone. You may disagree with the translation choices being discussed but more light and less heat would be appreciated.
Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 2:33 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
"For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, 
misled, 
enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, 
living in malice and envy
-- hated and hating one another." (~pure junk)

I mean...really! ....there are soooo many things wrong with this, that it's hard to know where to begin?
So imagin this, if you will, you're standing before the dias of God, giving Him you best, and He asks you
about this verse, in particular, and why you chose to present it to fellow believers as if ... as if ... it were
the actual words of God, Himself ... Do you think He's did anyone ... fellow believers or God ...a service?

Tell you what, Tim, it's not going to be a day of applause, but only of damp wet burning straw smoke!
I've just got to be asking ... and you should be asking ... what do you think you're really doing here?
It aint translation, and it aint God's words, and it aint well thought out, and it aint helpful to your fellow believer ...
so what the fuck is it?





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http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Working-through-a-smaller-Book-Titus-tp109p584.html
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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

russellallen
Administrator
Hi Robin,
I’m sorry you feel that way about the OEB project. It sounds like maybe you and the OEB aren’t a good philosophical match and you would be using your time better to contribute elsewhere. 

If you do wish to continue posting on this mailing list though, you will need to do so in a much less aggressive manner. 

Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:56 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ya, but it at least got a reply, which is not something that happens very often here ... that my post was a bit too the point and "sweet"
is true; however, I'd already spent hours with "Tim" explaining any number of details, in detail, about just the last three Greek words of this verse, and the factual reasons why they should be read in a particular way ... and yet, nothing was heard ...absolutely nothing ...and then he comes back with this sad lame dvival of a reading .... it's not even a good attempt at paraphrasing.  That is, the Open English Bible really does not want to hear back from anyone, concerning better ways, more factual ways of putting the scriptures into English; the current group of compilers for the OEB have already made up their minds (so dont confuse us with the facts) about the stunted manner that "they" want to hear it read. It's all sort of sad, really, you all dont know what you're doing, and dont care to know ... good luck!

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:08 PM, russellallen [via Open English Bible] <<a href="x-msg://4/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=585&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external" class="">[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Robin,
Just a friendly interjection, but the tone of emails on this mailing list should always be kind, courteous and professional. Your wording below is far too aggressive in tone. You may disagree with the translation choices being discussed but more light and less heat would be appreciated.
Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 2:33 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
"For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, 
misled, 
enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, 
living in malice and envy
-- hated and hating one another." (~pure junk)

I mean...really! ....there are soooo many things wrong with this, that it's hard to know where to begin?
So imagin this, if you will, you're standing before the dias of God, giving Him you best, and He asks you
about this verse, in particular, and why you chose to present it to fellow believers as if ... as if ... it were
the actual words of God, Himself ... Do you think He's did anyone ... fellow believers or God ...a service?

Tell you what, Tim, it's not going to be a day of applause, but only of damp wet burning straw smoke!
I've just got to be asking ... and you should be asking ... what do you think you're really doing here?
It aint translation, and it aint God's words, and it aint well thought out, and it aint helpful to your fellow believer ...
so what the fuck is it?





If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Working-through-a-smaller-Book-Titus-tp109p584.html
To unsubscribe from Working through a smaller Book - Titus, click here.
NAML




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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

robin
Not going to happen ... your loss, not mine!


On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 4:55 PM, russellallen [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Robin,
I’m sorry you feel that way about the OEB project. It sounds like maybe you and the OEB aren’t a good philosophical match and you would be using your time better to contribute elsewhere. 

If you do wish to continue posting on this mailing list though, you will need to do so in a much less aggressive manner. 

Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:56 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ya, but it at least got a reply, which is not something that happens very often here ... that my post was a bit too the point and "sweet"
is true; however, I'd already spent hours with "Tim" explaining any number of details, in detail, about just the last three Greek words of this verse, and the factual reasons why they should be read in a particular way ... and yet, nothing was heard ...absolutely nothing ...and then he comes back with this sad lame dvival of a reading .... it's not even a good attempt at paraphrasing.  That is, the Open English Bible really does not want to hear back from anyone, concerning better ways, more factual ways of putting the scriptures into English; the current group of compilers for the OEB have already made up their minds (so dont confuse us with the facts) about the stunted manner that "they" want to hear it read. It's all sort of sad, really, you all dont know what you're doing, and dont care to know ... good luck!

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:08 PM, russellallen [via Open English Bible] <<a href="x-msg://4/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=585&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external" class="">[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Robin,
Just a friendly interjection, but the tone of emails on this mailing list should always be kind, courteous and professional. Your wording below is far too aggressive in tone. You may disagree with the translation choices being discussed but more light and less heat would be appreciated.
Best wishes,
Russell

On 6 Apr 2016, at 2:33 pm, robin [via Open English Bible] <[hidden email]> wrote:
"For once we ourselves were also foolish, disobedient, 
misled, 
enslaved to various impulses and pleasures, 
living in malice and envy
-- hated and hating one another." (~pure junk)

I mean...really! ....there are soooo many things wrong with this, that it's hard to know where to begin?
So imagin this, if you will, you're standing before the dias of God, giving Him you best, and He asks you
about this verse, in particular, and why you chose to present it to fellow believers as if ... as if ... it were
the actual words of God, Himself ... Do you think He's did anyone ... fellow believers or God ...a service?

Tell you what, Tim, it's not going to be a day of applause, but only of damp wet burning straw smoke!
I've just got to be asking ... and you should be asking ... what do you think you're really doing here?
It aint translation, and it aint God's words, and it aint well thought out, and it aint helpful to your fellow believer ...
so what the fuck is it?





If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.openenglishbible.org/Working-through-a-smaller-Book-Titus-tp109p584.html
To unsubscribe from Working through a smaller Book - Titus, click here.
NAML




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Re: Working through a smaller Book - Titus

Timchambers
"I'd already spent hours with "Tim" explaining any number of details, in detail, about just the last three Greek words of this verse, and the factual reasons why they should be read in a particular way ... and yet, nothing was heard ...absolutely nothing ...and then he comes back with this sad lame dvival of a reading..."

Hi Robin: sorry for the time between responses, I'm working a 60 hour a week job, and jump in here to help on translation "in the cracks" between things. So that leads to longer breaks sometime.

And I can tell you were disappointed in my offering this as only "your view:"

"Cool: so given your view that this is the most direct literal word-for-word translation:
"detestable [ones], to one-another hating" would the ESV's choices of "hated by others and hating one another" or the Voice "hated by many, and hating one another" be closer to accurate natural English translation?"

But that was me actually attempting to take your notes on the previous translation and offer one that took those notes seriously and was me trying to find a translation that addressed your notes. Clearly you you found it a lame attempt. But it was in good faith effort.
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