"Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

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"Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
So this thread will be just devoted to the use of the word "soul" in the OEB. As listed in this other thread it seems that in many of these cases there would be a better translation for "psyche" or "naphesh" than soul, based on the context of each verse.

So in this thread I'll list each of the 39 places in the OEB that use the word "soul" currently, and compare that to choices other modern translations especially the HSCB and NT Wright's Kingdom NT translate each term. The hope is to find places where "psyche" would be more clearly translated for each context. And I'd provide my recommendation and put it up for group thoughts for each of the 39 instances.

Will make each instance it's own post in this thread and will do so in order of each verse in the NT only. Doing this for the OT is likely needed, but staring with NT only to keep this first effort doable in short order...

Cool.

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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
Matthew 10:28 reads:

[10:28] Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Virtually all modern translations keep this as "soul" for the time being, suggest we do too.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
Matthew 22:37 in the OEB reads:

His answer was: “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’


All modern versions leave this as "soul" and I recommend we do too. (Same for Mark 12:30)
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
 In the OEB Luke 1:46-47 reads:

 And Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit delights in God my Savior,

All major translations use soul for psyche and we should likely do so too.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
This post was updated on .
Acts 2:27 currently reads:

For you will not abandon my soul to the place of death, Nor surrender me, your holy one, to undergo corruption.

The HSBC reads:
because You will not leave me in Hades or let your Holy One see corruption.

The CEV reads:
The Lord won’t leave me in the grave. I am his holy one, and he won’t let my body decay.

The NCV reads:
because you will not leave me in the grave. You will not let your Holy One rot.

The KNT reads:
For you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption.

Consider this recommendation, which fixes "soul" and also a better translation for "diaphthora/rot/decay" but also keeps in the original word "Hades" as "Hades, just as we do for Gehenna:

For you will not abandon me to Hades, Nor will you let your Holy One to rot away.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
Romans 1:9-10 in the OEB reads:

God, to whom I offer the worship of my soul as I tell the goodness of his Son, is my witness how constantly I mention you when I pray, asking that, if he be willing, I may some day at last find the way open to visit you.

HSBC reads:
For God, whom I serve with my spirit in telling the good news about His Son, is my witness that I constantly mention you, always asking in my prayers that if it is somehow in God’s will, I may now at last succeed in coming to you.

ESV reads:
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you.

NIV:
God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

They all translate the word pneumati as "spirit" and I'd think we should to, not soul. While we are here, also we should fix the word "serve" latreuō rather than worship as they use. Also fixing a few other phrases to be more clearly accurate to the greek.

So for your consideration:

God, to whom I serve in my spirit in the Gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I mention you when I pray.  And I always ask that perhaps now at last - if he be willing - I may at last find the way open to visit you.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
In the OEB, Romans 2:28-29 currently reads:

For a man who is only a Jew outwardly is not a real Jew; nor is outward bodily circumcision real circumcision. The real Jew is the person who is a Jew in soul; [2:29] and the real circumcision is the circumcision of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal thing.


HSCB Reads:
For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter.

KNT reads:
28The “Jew” isn’t the person who appears to be one, you see. Nor is “circumcision” what it appears to be, a matter of physical flesh . 29 The “Jew” is the one in secret; and “circumcision” is a matter of the heart, in the spirit rather than the letter.

ESV reads:
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

NIV reads:
A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

Consider changing the OEB to make it more close to the Greek phrasing, and to properly translate "soul" to read:

For one is not a Jew who is one outwardly. Nor is circumcision a matter of visible, physical flesh. Rather, a Jew is one inwardly, and the real circumcision is the circumcision of the heart - by the Spirit - not by the written letter.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
Galatians 2:16 in the OEB currently reads:

[2:16] So we placed our faith in Christ Jesus, in order that we might be pronounced righteous, as the result of faith in Christ, and not of obedience to Law; for such obedience ‘will not result in even one soul's being pronounced righteous.’

All major English translations translate the word "soul" here as "one" or as "human being."

So I recommend removing the quotes, changing out the semicolon, and changing the OEB to read:

So we placed our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Coburn
In reply to this post by Timchambers
Interesting that the Greek of Rm 2.29 essentially says, "but a real Jew is a crytpo-Jew." My background in Spanish makes that almost funny. I agree, too, that "soul" is not an appropriate word to use here. Paul is referencing the Sermon on the Mount, almost saying, "A real Jew is one who practices his faith when no one is looking."
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
Glad you agree that "soul" is a poor fit here. And I do like this:

Coburn wrote
Interesting that the Greek of Rm 2.29 essentially says, "but a real Jew is a crytpo-Jew." My background in Spanish makes that almost funny. I agree, too, that "soul" is not an appropriate word to use here. Paul is referencing the Sermon on the Mount, almost saying, "A real Jew is one who practices his faith when no one is looking."
I do think you may be onto something with the greek "krypto" - http://biblehub.com/greek/2927.htm

The Voice Translation/paraphrase was trying for that with their rendition:

"But the true Jew is Jewish on the inside—in secret places no one but God can see—and true circumcision involves the heart; it comes from the Spirit, not from some written code."

And the Kingdom NT tried to capture it with this:
"The 'Jew' is the one in secret; and 'circumcision' is a matter of the heart, in the spirit rather than the letter."

Not sure if we add that many words to replace the single word "Kruptos" though.

Maybe we do this, what do folks think?

Rather, a Jew is so in a hidden places, and the real circumcision is the circumcision of the heart - by the Spirit - not by the written letter.

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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
In the OEB John 17:12 reads:
Whilst I was with them, I kept them by that revelation, and I have guarded them; and not one of them has been lost, except that lost soul — in fulfillment of scripture.

HSBC reads:
While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.

The ESV reads:
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The KNT reads:
When I was with them, I kept them in your name, the name you've given me. I guarded them, and none of them have been destroyed (excpet the son of destruction; that's what the Bible said would happen).

Consider this recommendation, that fixes "soul" but also cleans up the sentence structure and improves the translation of a few works such as "whilst"):

While I was with them, I kept them in your Name, which you've have given me. I guarded them and not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction — so that Scripture may be fulfilled.
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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers

In the OEB it reads in Matt 24:22:

Had not those days been limited, not a single soul would escape; but for the sake of ‘God's people’ a limit will be put to them.


The HSBC reads:
 Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.

NIV:
If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The ESV reads:
 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The NLV reads:
In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

My recommendation to consider: (fixing "soul" but also the semi-colon, and making "God's People/eklektos" clearer):


Had not those days been shortened, not a single one would escape. But for the sake of the God's chosen ones the days will be shortened.



This also applies to Mark 13:20, and Luke 10:27.

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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
In the OEB Gal 2:15-16 currently reads:

We, though we are Jews by birth and not outcasts of Gentile origin, know that no one is pronounced righteous as the result of obedience to Law, but only through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 So we placed our faith in Christ Jesus, in order that we might be pronounced righteous, as the result of faith in Christ, and not of obedience to Law; for such obedience ‘will not result in even one soul's being pronounced righteous.’

the HCSB reads:
We who are Jews by birth and not “Gentile sinners”  know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.[a] And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ[b] and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

The Voice reads:
 We are natural-born Jews, not sinners from the godless nations. 16 But we know that no one is made right with God by meeting the demands of the law. It is only through the faithfulness of Jesus[a] the Anointed that salvation is even possible. This is why we put faith in Jesus the Anointed: so we will be put right with God. It’s His faithfulness—not works prescribed by the law—that puts us in right standing with God because no one will be acquitted and declared “right” for doing what the law demands.

The NIV reads:
 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The KNT reads:
We are Jews by birth, not “Gentile sinners.” But we know that a person is not declared “righteous” by works of the Jewish law, but through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah. That is why we too believed in the Messiah, Jesus: so that we might be declared “righteous” on the basis of the Messiah’s faithfulness, and not on the basis of works of the Jewish law. On that basis, you see, no creature will be declared “righteous.”

I reworked this a few ways, added "gentile sinners" as most other major translations did, went with "justified" versus "pronounced righteous" and then I recommend just trading out "even one soul" with "no one" to read this way:

We are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners," yet we know that no one is justified by the obedience to Law, but only through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 So we placed our faith in Christ Jesus, in order that we might be justified, as the result of faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, for by the works of the Law, no one will be justified.
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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers

Matthew 11:29-30 currently reads in the OEB:

Take my yoke on you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble, and ‘you will find rest for your souls’; for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Many translations keep this "souls" but:

The HSBC reads:
All of you, take up My yoke and learn from Me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for yourselves. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

The KNT reads:
Pick up my yoke and put it on; take lessons from me! My heart is gentle, not arrogant. You'll find rest you deeply need. My yoke is easy to wear; my load is easy to bear.

The CEV reads:
Take the yoke I give you. Put it on your shoulders and learn from me. I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest.  This yoke is easy to bear, and this burden is light.

My suggestion to consider changing this to "your selves" and while we are here, losing the semi-colon and quote mark in the current version. So change to:

Take my yoke on you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest for yourselves. for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
In the OEB, Gal 6:18 currently reads:

May the blessing of Jesus Christ, our Lord, rest on your souls, friends. Amen.

Consider changing to this, which uses the word spirit (as Paul uses the term pneumatos) rather than soul (usually naphesh), uses "grace" (charis) rather than "blessings," and uses the term "brothers and sisters" (adelphoi, but adding "sisters" as the letter was clearly written to a mixed gender church audience), rather than "friends."

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.
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Re: Soul in the OEB

Coburn
In reply to this post by Timchambers
"in hidden places" is awkward. "A real Jew is one with integrity," or, because that is kind of Pelagian, "one who is transparently honest."
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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Coburn
In reply to this post by Timchambers
"Rest for yourselves" is non-standard usage; redundant without adding clarity. "You will be able to relax," is the sense of it, following Ge 5.29.

It strikes me that "rest for your souls" is a google-translation of the Greek. How does one's "soul" become overworked? Isn't it speaking of a sense of restfulness in the place of anxiety and intense concentration? Ec 7.16 The usage "rest for your souls" is (duh) a Hebraism meaning "rest from your self-directed mental effort."
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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
Good question. The greek seems to say you will find rest for your "psychais" which the OEB translates as "soul."

Trying to find a good commentary on how that specific word best translates.  Here is one reference to other places this specific word was used. Seems to have been used a few ways in one case very clearly being a synonym for "person." In hebrews 12:3 other translators seemed to translate this same word "heart" or "mind."

http://biblehub.com/greek/psuchais_5590.htm

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Re: Soul in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Coburn
Coburn wrote
"in hidden places" is awkward. "A real Jew is one with integrity," or, because that is kind of Pelagian, "one who is transparently honest."
I get where you are trying to go. I'm suggesting trying to where possible to as close to a word-for-word translation as makes sense in modern English.  Rather than translating a paraphrase or "thought for thought." Sometimes you HAVE to do a mix to simply be accurate or understandable. But I'm trying to lean as close to word for word, without adding phrases or removing them wholesale, unless absolutely necessary in terms of translation.

The original greek seems to be saying a Jew is one

Maybe we try something like this, going for the same direction the Kingdom NT did:

Rather, a Jew is so in secret, and the real circumcision is the circumcision of the heart - by the Spirit - not by the written letter.

Another translation did much the same rendition.
http://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/romans/2.htm

My vote would be to go with this, or like all the other major English translations did, go with "inwardly"
http://biblehub.com/romans/2-29.htm
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Re: "Soul" and "Psyche" in the OEB

Timchambers
In reply to this post by Timchambers
In the current OEB, Ephesians 3:14-16 reads:

For this reason, then, I kneel before the Father — From whom all ‘fatherhood’ in heaven and on earth derives its name — And pray that, in proportion to the wealth of his glory, he will strengthen you with his power by breathing his Spirit into your inmost soul,

The HSCB renders this:
"For this reason I kneel before the Father[a] 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named. 16 I pray that He may grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power in the inner man through His Spirit,"

The NIV renders this:
"For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,"

The KNT renders this:
Because of this, I am kneeling down before the father, 15the one who gives the name of “family” to every family that there is, in heaven and on earth. 16My prayer is this: that he will lay out all the riches of his glory to give you strength and power, through his spirit, in your inner being;

The ESV renders this:
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being,"

I think the translation of "patria" as Fatherhood in the OEB is off a bit, and the word "family" seems a better match. And the word the OEB translates "soul" here "esso anthropos" seems to be much closer to "interior person" or "inner being." There also seems to be a simpler English structure to the language overall that is in sync with the greek:

So I recommend:

For this reason, then, I kneel before the Father — From whom every family in heaven and on earth is named — And pray that, so that out of the riches of his glory, he will grant you to be strengthened with his power, through his Spirit, in your inner being,
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